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  1. #1
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Default Trying to have a logical convo with a fundamentalist.

    I am guitarhero, and my friend is brownster.

    guitarhero902 (5:21:12 PM): hey question, when did god dropkick satan to the earth?
    Brownster(5:21:25 PM): dropkick?
    guitarhero902 (5:21:28 PM): lol
    guitarhero902 (5:21:35 PM): roundhouse kick him to earth
    guitarhero902 (5:21:37 PM): whatever
    guitarhero902 (5:21:38 PM): lol
    Brownster (5:22:09 PM): lucifer was the "music director" in heaven, and he became jelious of God, and wanted some of the worship to be directed at him
    guitarhero902 (5:22:24 PM): i mean when, like garden of eden time, or jesus time
    Brownster (5:22:57 PM): b4 the garden of eden
    guitarhero902 (5:23:02 PM): ok
    guitarhero902 (5:23:21 PM): and satan was a sinner, or sinned or whatnot
    guitarhero902 (5:24:21 PM): cause he went against god?
    Brownster (5:24:38 PM): basicly
    guitarhero902 (5:24:49 PM): and the snake in eden was satan?
    Brownster (5:25:12 PM): mhm
    guitarhero902 (5:25:19 PM): ok
    guitarhero902 (5:25:31 PM): who brought sin into the world?
    Brownster (5:27:11 PM): well, the serpent aka the devil, taunted eve to break the one rule and become the first himan sinner
    guitarhero902 (5:27:30 PM): so teh devil was teh first sinner, and eve was the first human sinner?
    Brownster (5:27:42 PM): basicly
    guitarhero902 (5:28:25 PM): So god banished the devil to earth
    guitarhero902 (5:28:36 PM): and the devil is a sinner
    guitarhero902 (5:28:41 PM): and the devil made humans sin
    guitarhero902 (5:28:59 PM): so didnt god bring sin into the world through banishing the devil here?
    Brownster (5:29:43 PM): no
    guitarhero902 (5:29:59 PM): But he brought the devil into the world. And the devil was a sinner...
    guitarhero902 (5:30:05 PM): before humans were
    Brownster (5:31:20 PM): thats like saying because he is so powerful why does he let so much bad happen in the world
    guitarhero902 (5:31:28 PM): ....not really
    guitarhero902 (5:31:51 PM): Im saying, he dropped the devil to earht, and devil was the first sinner, so he brought sin to earth
    Brownster (5:32:31 PM): well it doesnt say he banished him to earhth just that he kicked him out of heaven i think i havent read it
    Brownster (5:32:38 PM): but
    Brownster (5:32:58 PM): or maybe he just let it happen because he saw that it would eventually bring around somthing better
    guitarhero902 (5:33:58 PM): it would make sense
    guitarhero902 (5:34:21 PM): But you agree that if he did drop him to earth, and he is a sinner, then god brought the first sinner, logically
    Brownster(5:34:32 PM): idk


    Any ideas/comments/arguments? post away!
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  2. #2
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    I am guitarhero, and my friend is brownster.

    guitarhero902 (5:21:12 PM): hey question, when did god dropkick satan to the earth?
    Brownster(5:21:25 PM): dropkick?
    guitarhero902 (5:21:28 PM): lol
    guitarhero902 (5:21:35 PM): roundhouse kick him to earth
    guitarhero902 (5:21:37 PM): whatever
    LOL
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
    -
    J.Krishnamurti

  3. #3
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    guitarhero902 (5:52:59 PM): do you think it is possible to believe in evolution and jesus?
    Brownster(5:53:11 PM): no
    Brownster (5:53:24 PM): they contradick each other
    guitarhero902 (5:53:43 PM): I guess the argument is more the BIBLE and evolution contradicct eachother
    guitarhero902 (5:54:04 PM): but thats moot because thats a whole different arguemnt
    guitarhero902 (5:54:20 PM): Can people believe in America and Jesus?
    Brownster (5:54:32 PM): huh
    guitarhero902 (5:54:56 PM): Like, be a true blue patriot and be a christian?
    Brownster (5:55:12 PM): what wrong with that?
    guitarhero902 (5:55:24 PM): well american laws contradict bible laws
    Brownster (5:55:38 PM): how
    guitarhero902 (5:55:49 PM): The bible says to kill someone for saying God Dammit
    Brownster (5:56:03 PM): ugh
    guitarhero902 (5:56:14 PM): its a contradiction
    Brownster (5:56:47 PM): ugh
    guitarhero902 (5:56:55 PM): ? its not a contradiction?
    guitarhero902 (5:58:08 PM): there are tons of them
    Brownster(5:58:40 PM): mhm sure
    guitarhero902 (5:58:50 PM): Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
    guitarhero902 (5:58:57 PM): Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
    guitarhero902 (5:59:11 PM): If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

    Brownster (5:59:27 PM): dude
    guitarhero902 (5:59:27 PM): contradicitons, its pretty blackc and white, though i think american may actually agree with the last
    Brownster(5:59:42 PM): u do realize that Jesus chaged alot of stufff when he died on the cross
    Brownster (5:59:54 PM): it even says comthing to the effect of Jesus is the law now
    guitarhero902 (5:59:57 PM): Changed?
    guitarhero902 (6:00:22 PM): I thought it was 100% right? Explain please, maybe im not getting it
    Brownster (6:00:31 PM): it is
    Brownster (6:00:41 PM): but when jesus died one the cross he bcame the law
    Brownster (6:00:52 PM): because the law had to change
    guitarhero902 (6:00:54 PM): so he kinda like took over the family business?
    Brownster (6:00:56 PM): it wasnt perfect
    Brownster (6:01:12 PM): it was slay a lamb once a year to push ahead ur sins
    guitarhero902 (6:01:14 PM): so its 100% right, but not perfect?
    Brownster (6:01:17 PM): the sins never left
    Brownster (6:01:23 PM): omg guy
    Brownster (6:01:26 PM): seriously
    guitarhero902 (6:01:29 PM): Im just asking
    guitarhero902 (6:01:44 PM): if your right then defend it with an arguement
    Brownster (6:01:45 PM): but u have a way of twisting stuff
    guitarhero902 (6:01:49 PM): ...
    guitarhero902 (6:01:57 PM): Its called rebuttle
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  4. #4
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    My biggest problem on this is whot happens after, if god is "all seeing and all knowing" then WTF is it that the devil TAKING THE FORM OF A SNAKE, as in NOT REALLY A SNAKE AT ALL but just some guy in a snake mask/suit or whotever, was evil... then why does god then punish ALL the snakes in the world by removing their legs... for something they didn't even do!?

    The whole genesis thing is screwed up all the way through it, and then people say the bible is 100% accurate... it's like... no. If the bible's accurate, then god is a whiney little impotent brat who's self idolizing, never did a damn thing, and throws a tantrum when anyone questions him, despite never having earned the respect he demands. I refuse to believe in a god like that, and don't see why people think that it's such a great thing.

  5. #5
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Is there any purpose in him really trying to talk to you? C'mon, you want him to share his faith with you but it's just so you can make fun of it?

    Not to mention, it doesn't matter what subject it is that you talk to people who can't form a logical argument, they won't form one. I hate when people use lame friends who can't discuss on their "logical" level to pretend that that's how "logical" people would discuss Christianity if they actually talked to a LOGICAL person about it.

  6. #6
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Is there any purpose in him really trying to talk to you? C'mon, you want him to share his faith with you but it's just so you can make fun of it?

    Not to mention, it doesn't matter what subject it is that you talk to people who can't form a logical argument, they won't form one. I hate when people use lame friends who can't discuss on their "logical" level to pretend that that's how "logical" people would discuss Christianity if they actually talked to a LOGICAL person about it.
    Im not trying to talk to someone who has studied apologetics for years, im trying to talk to a average believer. Its not my fault if the average christian doesnt use logic when arguing religion.
    I also didnt' attack him personally, I only made arguments against HIS arguements.
    Not to mention, I HAVE talked with him and other christians about other things, that they have had perfectly logical beliefs.

    I believe that your hostility is coming more from you trying to pigeonhole this into the past experiences with "people using lame friends" than anythign I have done. This conversation sums up every one I have had with a christian who believes the bible is completelly correct.

    What you are saying is "dont argue with people who cant think logically" So basically if I view anything as illogical, laws, beliefs, actions, I cannot argue with them because they must be illogical, so its not worth it.

    EDIT: ALso, if a Christian would like to step forward to argue about how Christianity is logical, feel free.
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  7. #7
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    Trying to talk him out of his beliefs is totally counterproductive and unnecessary. Trying to convert a Christian to atheism is just as rude as a Christian uninvitedly trying to convert people they meet to chuch-goers.

    You're not trying to have a logical discussion. You're picking on him. Why? Why don't you just talk to a more "logical" Christian instead if you're really curious about their beliefs?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    What you are saying is "dont argue with people who cant think logically" So basically if I view anything as illogical, laws, beliefs, actions, I cannot argue with them because they must be illogical, so its not worth it.
    Yes, also, it's a pointless waste of time to argue with certain people about certain things, especially if they have a clear problem with logic. You're not going to magically save them or teach them anything, so why bother?

  9. #9
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    Its not my fault if the average christian doesnt use logic when arguing religion
    You find the average person does use logic when arguing anything?

  10. #10
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Trying to talk him out of his beliefs is totally counterproductive and unnecessary. Trying to convert a Christian to atheism is just as rude as a Christian uninvitedly trying to convert people they meet to chuch-goers.

    You're not trying to have a logical discussion. You're picking on him. Why? Why don't you just talk to a more "logical" Christian instead if you're really curious about their beliefs?
    Talk him out of his beliefs? You make this pejorative. If a child believed that a boogeyman was going to kill them for wearing two kinds of clothing, why is it wrong to point out there is no proof of this?

    Im not trying to convert anyone, but I have a problem with flawed logic.
    And I'm alwasy willing to argue my beliefs, its hones them, and allows for new concepts.

    Convert; To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief: convert pagans to Christianity; was converted to pacifism by the war.

    Freethought to me is more a process for forming a belief rather than one in itself, as two freethinkers can be drastically different.

    Freethinking is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any other dogma. The cognitive application of freethought is known as freethinking, and practitioners of freethought are known as freethinkers.

    And as far as the average person not using logic, by no means does this mean they should not be confronted with it.
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

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