User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 99

  1. #61
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    See, i don't agree here. I never noticed christianity to have some identifiable internal logic. There's a very clear wall between the teachings and observed behavior and the teachings are often lacking congruence. There's also no clear way to identify which teachings will be used as they appear and which will be considered to be metaphorical.

    And last but not least, there's no way to know what principles are used to judge which rule is to be applied and which rule is to be dismissed. Yet, the religion always uses for example, their holy books or some other reposits of the religious teachings AS the moral compass to be used.

    This is paradoxical. And absurd.

    I just see no way anybody could honestly defend such a cyclic reasoning.
    Have you ever read Mere Christianity? CS Lewis was a highly logical, NT ex-atheist who argued rationally for Christianity.

  2. #62
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Have you ever read Mere Christianity? CS Lewis was a highly logical, NT ex-atheist who argued rationally for Christianity.
    he also wrote fantasy books
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #63
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    he also wrote fantasy books
    So that would be a "no" then, correct? It's illogical to presume that someone who can write fantasy is an individual who cannot engage logic; the two are not mutually exclusive. And his books were intended to be allegories, i.e. he intentionally wrote them as a different method to reach a different audience.

    Mere Christianity is analogous to the high school prereqs that allow you to get into the university courses, and by the 3000 or 4000 level you're finally able to see just how bottomless the depth of exploration that is possible really is. That book is Lewis' radio interview answers in text form.

    Lewis is just one well-known Christian apologist; Augustine is another from a different century, and the list of respected Christian intellectuals is long. MIT's head of Nuclear Physics and Engineering is a notable speaker for the faith, if you're looking into the non-religious-profession world.

    But if you haven't read a few books from some of the great thinkers in Christianity, how can you refute the logic of the religion? You don't even know what it is you're arguing against.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #64
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    8w7
    Posts
    112

    Default

    I've created a monster, I dont even know what to respond to.
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  5. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    669

    Default

    Sometimes this type of conversation is not a waste of time. But you have to be talking to a person who is willing to learn and be open, and you have to be patient.

    I was an extreme fundamentalist Christian (though I read a lot of apologetics stuff and could explain myself a little better than the guy in the OP.) My INTP friend kept at me like this for a couple of years, though I have to say, the majority of the time he was respectful and tried to avoid frustrating me.

    He got me to the point where I could see what was illogical about my thinking, and start from 0. And then he left me alone to work it out for myself. Now, I don't even believe the same way he does, but I'm extremely grateful that he spent so much time with me, when I'm sure I was insanely frustrating. I don't think he cared about converting me to his belief system as much as he wanted me to be able to learn to think for myself.

    I think the main reason he talked to me, though, was because in our initial conversations he could tell I had really thought through some issues. Even though I hadn't thought them through far enough, I think it showed him that I was at least capable of going further with a little prodding. He never wastes his time talking to people who spout him a line they heard in Sunday School and haven't taken the time to study things for themselves.

    I might add that the first time he finally asked me a question I couldn't answer, I spent the entire night shaking and vomiting because it was too much for me to handle such a huge shift in my world view, especially after I had banked everything in my life on it. Later in the process, I came perilously close to killing myself. He got me through it and out to the other side where I was not in such a fog, but this is serious stuff to a lot of people. So take it seriously, please.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  6. #66
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    You know, I wonder... why is it that whenever someone complains about having a logical conversation with a fundamentalist, they were always talking about religion with them? Personally, I'm curious as to how a fundamentalist would perform at dealing with a logical conversation about something unrelated to religion. Would they still suck at it then? Or is their narrow view of religion the only logical flaw in their worldview?

    I mean, what if you talked about... mathematics, chemistry, or the economy, for instance?

  7. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    669

    Default

    To a fundamentalist, religion is involved in everything. Science, education, medicine, politics, art, and even the parking spot I got at the mall. Kind of makes it difficult to separate "nonreligious" things in order to have a rational conversation. Math, maybe. The economy ... I still hear all sorts of religious reasons from my fundie friends about why the economy is the way it is, so I'm gonna call that as a no go.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  8. #68
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    To a fundamentalist, religion is involved in everything. Science, education, medicine, politics, art, and even the parking spot I got at the mall. Kind of makes it difficult to separate "nonreligious" things in order to have a rational conversation. Math, maybe. The economy ... I still hear all sorts of religious reasons from my fundie friends about why the economy is the way it is, so I'm gonna call that as a no go.
    I... can't really comprehend that. My parents believed in God, read the Bible, prayed at night, and they freak out about things like Tarot card and Quija boards, but they didn't even care strongly enough to go to church, or see everything as related to religion. It was just a part of their lives that they invoked whenever there was a crisis, birth, death, or a holiday, and ignored the rest of the time. Basically, it was just a ritual to signify things of importance.

    I mean, how could you live your whole life around one thing, especially one thing that you can't even... see? I don't just mean religion, I mean... well, anything. Technology, dating, philosophy, writing, music (though those are more understandable because you can see their effects)... some people live their whole lives around one thing, and that seems strange to me. I guess I've just always felt this natural need to segment things off, have different parts of my life that can interact, but don't necessarily.

  9. #69
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Have you ever read Mere Christianity? CS Lewis was a highly logical, NT ex-atheist who argued rationally for Christianity.
    What exactly do you mean by "rationally"?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #70
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What exactly do you mean by "rationally"?
    See, i love how people confuse close circuit logic with rationality which tends to have the silly habit of empiricism.

    That was my point btw, about the fantasy books.
    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    So that would be a "no" then, correct? It's illogical to presume that someone who can write fantasy is an individual who cannot engage logic; the two are not mutually exclusive. And his books were intended to be allegories, i.e. he intentionally wrote them as a different method to reach a different audience.

    Mere Christianity is analogous to the high school prereqs that allow you to get into the university courses, and by the 3000 or 4000 level you're finally able to see just how bottomless the depth of exploration that is possible really is. That book is Lewis' radio interview answers in text form.
    But ofc usehername assumed I didn't have her incredible gift for second degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Lewis is just one well-known Christian apologist; Augustine is another from a different century, and the list of respected Christian intellectuals is long. MIT's head of Nuclear Physics and Engineering is a notable speaker for the faith, if you're looking into the non-religious-profession world.

    But if you haven't read a few books from some of the great thinkers in Christianity, how can you refute the logic of the religion? You don't even know what it is you're arguing against.
    And btw, i followed college theology courses. Since you seem to be deeply impressed by degrees and college curriculums, as any rational and self made lady should be. Ofc. (Let's play 'can you spot the sarcasm')
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

Similar Threads

  1. [ISTJ] ISTJ & trying to have fun... ugh
    By 2XtremeENFP in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 02-14-2010, 10:25 PM
  2. [MBTItm] How Should an iNFj Go About Trying to Connect with a ESFJ dad?
    By Glycerine in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-02-2008, 01:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO