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  1. #31
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Well, everybody is either arguing about the validity of logical reasoning or the politness of the whole thing.

    I'd rather ask the question of religions, that after all argue that they possess the truth about the universe, and actively judge other people's belief as being wrong.
    Most religions teach kids that other people will go to some sort of hell or just, not go to heaven because they did the terrible thing of not believing in that one religion and convey a feeling of superiority / moral righteousness rarely based on any action that these people do or did.
    I'd like to remind you that ujustified feelings of untitlement are what lead people to crime, murder, rape and other abuses by giving them a feeling of moral superiority justifying their any action

    I think that sort of statement religions make about the universe and the importance of the believer compared to other people needs to BE congruent with everyday realities and the state of human knowledge.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh wait. I also want to explain to you what your friend wasn't successful at getting across to you.

    When Jesus came LOVE became the law, and all of the old laws were pretty much rendered useless (the stuff about burning animals and homosexuals and all of that nonsense) by the Law of Love (forgiveness, charity, faith, peace, etc.)

    All people are sinners. No one is perfect. No person can follow the perfect letter of any law, which is why love and forgiveness are necessary. God is love. Jesus came to bring that message of salvation.

    It's weird because I understood what he was trying to explain to you, but he wasn't capable of doing it. That's why I felt like you were picking on him.
    I understood it too. I don't know how I feel about "picking on someone" though; I feel that if you are going to hold particular religious beliefs that label other people as morally inferior to you if they don't agree w/ your beliefs (i.e., they're going to hell now and you're not because you believe the "right thing" and they don't), then you'd better be able to articulate your beliefs clearly. If you can't, that seems pretty rude and unfair to me, and even pathetic.

    The other thing is that people who hold these beliefs do not discard the OT. The homosexuality and crossdressing admonitions (among other things) in the OT get brought up a lot by evangelicals nowadays, and if you actually attend church and get into Bible study pretty rigorously, even if the Law is "perfected" in Christ, it's not considered to have changed.

    We don't put gay people to death nowadays, for example, in the USA... but it's still considered an "abomination" by conservatives. (In recent news, the Lutheran Church is currently undergoing another schism because homosexuals in committed monogamous relationships have been permitted to be clergy; in the past, they were required to be celibate. Why's it a big issue? Because of the OT law, plus a few comments made by Paul.) It seems to be that the OT law and NT are still totally connected and referenced, but we just are a "kindler gentler nation" because we don't actually punish people for their specific "sins" in the prescribed OT way. That seems to be the difference, but the laws remain, in practice.

    It's sort of disingenous to say that Christianity's all about the NT, because in practice it is not, and if you attend any sort of conservative church, you'll see that the OT is referred quite a lot in order to connect it to the NT and the old laws are merely being fulfilled in Christ rather than tossed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Most religions teach kids that other people will go to some sort of hell or just, not go to heaven because they did the terrible thing of not believing in that one religion.
    I think that is just the Abrahamic religions that do that? Most religions I believe are ethnic and not imperialistic.

  4. #34
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    Again, ignorance.
    How many times have i said i am not trying to enforce, convert of force him or even change his opinion?

    Attack my arguements, not me. Otherwise you are doing nothing constructive.

    EDIT: For example, can someone show me where my logic was incorrect? If you argue that it all comes down to faith then we are effectivly done i suppose, have two irreconciable beliefs, unless you can somehow show me a reason faith leads to truth.
    The problem isn't your logic; the problem is that these people don't give a shit about logic and will never, ever use it to govern any area of their lives.

    And testing your logical debate abilities vs. religious fundamentalists? That's like beating up old ladies to practice boxing.

    Come on man, really?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #35
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    I think that is just the Abrahamic religions that do that? Most religions I believe are ethnic and not imperialistic.
    Remind me what happened in human history any time one culture had a chance at taking over another?

    I just, can't seem to find any hunter gatherers around here for some reason.
    It's strange, since agriculture brought famines, illnesses and population pressure but also forced people to work orders of magnitude more..

    And I don't think you've ever heard about or studied in group / out group dynamics in general. The main difference between what you describe as ethnic and imperialistic is size.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    I think that is just the Abrahamic religions that do that? Most religions I believe are ethnic and not imperialistic.
    My only experience was with Abrahamic religions for years, so yes, I was pleasantly surprised to find a lot of world faiths that DON'T view it as a matter of "believing the right doctrine."

    Then again, those religions are frowned on by the Abrahamic traditions because they're false and watered down and have no standards, to them.

    (Actually, I've found Judaism to be more flexible in practice than fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity. It's really funny to me how Christians read a Jewish book and make it rigid, while the Jews are much more flexible with it. It's "their book" so to speak, you think we would follow their lead with it.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Remind me what happened in human history any time one culture had a chance at taking over another?

    I just, can't seem to find any hunter gatherers around here for some reason.
    It's strange, since agriculture brought famines, illnesses and population pressure but also forced people to work orders of magnitude more..

    And I don't think you've ever heard about or studied in group / out group dynamics in general. The main difference between what you describe as ethnic and imperialistic is size.
    I haven't heard of any other religions that made a deliberate point to convert foreigners to their native religion, which is often based on their ancestry. So their "Gods" are their ancestors, but they don't really worship them in the Christian sense most of us today are familiar with. I put it in question form because I wasn't sure if there were other religions outside the Abrahamicsphere that are explicit in converting and assimilating foreigners, they do seem pretty unique in this regard.

    I thought the hunter-gatherer scenario was to kill the men and children and poach the women? Know of any good anthropology where I can learn more? Isn't Trivers famous for in/out group dynamics?

    Come to think of it, do Jews even actively try to convert and assimilate people into Judaism and regard anyone who doesn't as going to a hell or suffering etc.? Maybe it's just Christianity/Islam.

  8. #38
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My only experience was with Abrahamic religions for years, so yes, I was pleasantly surprised to find a lot of world faiths that DON'T view it as a matter of "believing the right doctrine."

    Then again, those religions are frowned on by the Abrahamic traditions because they're false and watered down and have no standards, to them.

    (Actually, I've found Judaism to be more flexible in practice than fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity. It's really funny to me how Christians read a Jewish book and make it rigid, while the Jews are much more flexible with it. It's "their book" so to speak, you think we would follow their lead with it.)
    Yeah we need a Jew to explain what's up with Judaism. It does seem more of a cultural practice for the purpose of reinforcing their own identity as a group rather than convert outsiders. Anyone know anything about Buddhism or Hinduism as well? Those are huge too.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I understood it too. I don't know how I feel about "picking on someone" though; I feel that if you are going to hold particular religious beliefs that label other people as morally inferior to you if they don't agree w/ your beliefs (i.e., they're going to hell now and you're not because you believe the "right thing" and they don't), then you'd better be able to articulate your beliefs clearly. If you can't, that seems pretty rude and unfair to me, and even pathetic.
    But the OP feels that people are inferior to him if people don't agree with his beliefs, and he never said if his religious friend is the one imposing on him. As far as I can tell, the original imposition came from the OP. Not all Christians walk around telling other people that they're morally inferior.

    The other thing is that people who hold these beliefs do not discard the OT. The homosexuality and crossdressing admonitions (among other things) in the OT get brought up a lot by evangelicals nowadays, and if you actually attend church and get into Bible study pretty rigorously, even if the Law is "perfected" in Christ, it's not considered to have changed.

    We don't put gay people to death nowadays, for example, in the USA... but it's still considered an "abomination" by conservatives. (In recent news, the Lutheran Church is currently undergoing another schism because homosexuals in committed monogamous relationships have been permitted to be clergy; in the past, they were required to be celibate. Why's it a big issue? Because of the OT law, plus a few comments made by Paul.) It seems to be that the OT law and NT are still totally connected and referenced, but we just are a "kindler gentler nation" because we don't actually punish people for their specific "sins" in the prescribed OT way. That seems to be the difference, but the laws remain, in practice.

    It's sort of disingenous to say that Christianity's all about the NT, because in practice it is not, and if you attend any sort of conservative church, you'll see that the OT is referred quite a lot in order to connect it to the NT and the old laws are merely being fulfilled in Christ rather than tossed.
    No it isn't disingenous, it's how I and many other people interpret it. How other groups choose to interpret it have nothing to do with my beliefs or what I perceive to be the real message of Christianity.

  10. #40
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    I haven't heard of any other religions that made a deliberate point to convert foreigners to their native religion, which is often based on their ancestry. So their "Gods" are their ancestors, but they don't really worship them in the Christian sense most of us today are familiar with. I put it in question form because I wasn't sure if there were other religions outside the Abrahamicsphere that are explicit in converting and assimilating foreigners, they do seem pretty unique in this regard.

    I thought the hunter-gatherer scenario was to kill the men and children and poach the women? Know of any good anthropology where I can learn more? Isn't Trivers famous for in/out group dynamics?

    Come to think of it, do Jews even actively try to convert and assimilate people into Judaism and regard anyone who doesn't as going to a hell or suffering etc.? Maybe it's just Christianity/Islam.
    I said, take charge, to have power over. Not convert.
    Your point is mute.moot
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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