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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    i DO think that logic applies EVERYwhere. ..
    And if you think that I feel superior, then you are right. About that one thing, at least. And there are those who are superior to me, in certain things.
    Many things, in fact.

    I see. Well, then you're never going to have a successful conversation with a large number of people, so get used to it.

  2. #22
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh wait. I also want to explain to you what your friend wasn't successful at getting across to you.

    When Jesus came LOVE became the law, and all of the old laws were pretty much rendered useless (the stuff about burning animals and homosexuals and all of that nonsense) by the Law of Love (forgiveness, charity, faith, peace, etc.)

    All people are sinners. No one is perfect. No person can follow the perfect letter of any law, which is why love and forgiveness are necessary. God is love. Jesus came to bring that message of salvation.

    It's weird because I understood what he was trying to explain to you, but he wasn't capable of doing it. That's why I felt like you were picking on him.

    I understand what he is saying.
    The problem is actually that i dont see how if the bible is gods word and it was 100% correct WHY HE HAD TO CHANGE IT.

    Something being perfect renders it above change.

    And as for the first argument, its just a logical process.

    God made Satan
    Satan Sinned
    God created a perfect earth
    God put satan on earth
    Satan convinced man to sin
    Man now =Sinner
    But man brought sin into the world? I THINK NOT WATSON!
    Satan=Sinner
    God put Sin on earth

    Thats a logical answer

    EDIT: I also encourage peopel to read my WHOLE posts, hence why i try to quote the entire thing.
    No quote mining please.
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  3. #23
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I don't even need to read the post; the title is enough.

    Waste of time.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #24
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't even need to read the post; the title is enough.

    Waste of time.
    How amazingly enlightened of you. Why bother posting at all?

    "I have come to the conclusion what you have said is wrong, though I may not know what it is you have said..."
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    I understand what he is saying.
    The problem is actually that i dont see how if the bible is gods word and it was 100% correct WHY HE HAD TO CHANGE IT.

    Something being perfect renders it above change.

    And as for the first argument, its just a logical process.

    God made Satan
    Satan Sinned
    God created a perfect earth
    God put satan on earth
    Satan convinced man to sin
    Man now =Sinner
    But man brought sin into the world? I THINK NOT WATSON!
    Satan=Sinner
    God put Sin on earth

    Thats a logical answer
    God is perfect because God is Love.

    Re: Your logical conclusion ~ Only if you're a literalist. Which I am not. I do not read the Bible literally.

    I do feel that people have a rotten, fallen nature that must be reconciled with aspiration to something higher. I accept that the Bible is a metaphorical attempt to explain this, just like some other religious texts.

    Buddhism is filled with paradoxes, too. So is the Tao.

    It's pointless to argue logic against feelings or faith. I'm sorry you feel compelled to fight a losing battle.

    However, I do relate to you in that I have wasted energy in the past trying to make others see major issues my way. I have only found by experience how useless such a pursuit is.

  6. #26
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    How amazingly enlightened of you. Why bother posting at all?

    "I have come to the conclusion what you have said is wrong, though I may not know what it is you have said..."
    Uh huh. The funny part is that I'm still right, despite not even reading your post.

    Let me know when the fundie comes around and starts reading Darwin with you, champ. :yim_rolling_on_the_
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #27
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    God is perfect because God is Love.

    Re: Your logical conclusion ~ Only if you're a literalist. Which I am not. I do not read the Bible literally.

    I do feel that people have a rotten, fallen nature that must be reconciled with aspiration to something higher. I accept that the Bible is a metaphorical attempt to explain this, just like some other religious texts.

    Buddhism is filled with paradoxes, too. So is the Tao.

    It's pointless to argue logic against feelings or faith. I'm sorry you feel compelled to fight a losing battle.

    However, I do relate to you in that I have wasted energy in the past trying to make others see major issues my way. I have only found by experience how useless such a pursuit is.
    Im not doing it to change minds. I did it simply because I wanted to. Im constantly looking to expand my beliefs, but have yet to get a good arguement for most religions. I am basically mining for gold. Lots of useless rock, sometimes a nugget of wisdom.

    I also think that rationaly the bible being metaphorical would make sense, but also has infinant capability to be iinterpreted incorrectly if it is metaphorical.
    Also, Your definition of God is flawed, but looks pretty intimidating.

    For example, I have read the bible front to back and the best way to describe it would be.
    God loves you, if you love god. If you dont, you deserve to die and burn in hell, be you man, woman, or child.

    So God is Selective Love

    Unless of course you make the arguement he loves us even though we are in hell, then the debate would be on what you define love as.

    Then the argument would be pointless because if two people have two opinions on what love is, then how could they argue the point of "God is love"?
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  8. #28
    Senior Member therationaledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Uh huh. The funny part is that I'm still right, despite not even reading your post.

    Let me know when the fundie comes around and starts reading Darwin with you, champ. :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Again, ignorance.
    How many times have i said i am not trying to enforce, convert of force him or even change his opinion?

    Attack my arguements, not me. Otherwise you are doing nothing constructive.

    EDIT: For example, can someone show me where my logic was incorrect? If you argue that it all comes down to faith then we are effectivly done i suppose, have two irreconciable beliefs, unless you can somehow show me a reason faith leads to truth.
    "You would lose your money," Sherlock Holmes remarked calmly. "As for the article I wrote it myself."

    "You!"

    "Yes, I have a turn both for observation and for deduction. The theories which I have expressed there, and which appear to you to be so chimerical are really extremely practical -- so practical that I depend upon them for my bread and cheese."

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Brownster (5:32:31 PM): well it doesnt say he banished him to earhth just that he kicked him out of heaven i think i havent read it


    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur
    Not to mention, it doesn't matter what subject it is that you talk to people who can't form a logical argument, they won't form one. I hate when people use lame friends who can't discuss on their "logical" level to pretend that that's how "logical" people would discuss Christianity if they actually talked to a LOGICAL person about it.
    Many people do not operate on a logical basis for any area of their lives. As you say, this is just more of the same.

    It is rather like shooting fish in a barrel... What's the point exactly? SOmetimes it seems really useless.

    However, I think people can benefit from being thoughtfully challenged about their beliefs and being made to think, rather than just being ridiculed. It would be nice if Brownster here actually went and read some of the stuff he claims to believe, just so he gets a better idea of what he's laying claim to.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRationalEdge
    I believe that your hostility is coming more from you trying to pigeonhole this into the past experiences with "people using lame friends" than anythign I have done. This conversation sums up every one I have had with a christian who believes the bible is completelly correct.
    Well, you're still definitely drawing from the lower half of the IQ pool here... to get a better idea, you should probably talk to an older evangelical (30-50's) who actually attends Bible study and tries to have an informed faith, even if they hold the same positions. Then you'd get better clarity on why they might think as they do.

    A lot of what your friend here was saying is actually what the standard belief is, but he can't articulate himself well nor has he really invested a lot in understanding what he was taught what he was taught, so it comes off as really hokey.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Some people just don't want to engage in the philosophical debate. Just accept it and move on to someone else.
    In general I agree.... but specifically this is the same sort of shoddy uninformed thinking and beliefs not tied to reality that leads to certain social assumptions that end up being expressed by laws like Proposition 8 in CA.

    So no, it's not harmless, this sort of unchallenged thinking actually contributes negatively to the social discussion. I'm a lot happier with people who might hold the same beliefs but can actually articulate why, than I am with people who hold opinions and can't explain why they hold them. There has to be SOME degree of challenge in order to help weed out believing in things that don't make sense just because that's what you were taught.

    Quote Originally Posted by therationaledge View Post
    Also, if someon said "i am not comfertable/ something else, in discussing this, i wouldnt"

    I think that's entirely respectable.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    I don't bother arguing with fundamentalists of any kind, Christian or otherwise.

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