• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Parenting Philosophies/The Role of Children In Society

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
The desire to be the perfect Mom ... be careful not to be lured into the pleasing deception of that.

There's also the danger of flirting with "holier than thou" statements in threads like these, even if unintended.

There were issues from my own childhood that I never wanted my kids to feel subjected to. Spanking was one of them. So I made conscious choices I felt would facilitate a certain result in my kids' lives. I read, noted and put into practice positive information from books that were popular when my kids were going through different developmental stages.

I now have two young people stepping out into their adult lives and it's interesting to note that what "worked" for one child did not appear to "work" for the other. It was always a balancing act to understand each child and offer what I believed they needed at the time. And despite all that's great about what you do in your job as a parent, each child needs to rebel in their own way in order to help establish their independence, and will complain about SOMETHING that you did or didn't do. Each will likely feel that there was something challenging about their upbringing. No matter how "perfect" you try to get it, or how diligently you apply some magic parenting formula.

My point I guess, simply put, is there is no formula. I believe that love, communication and mutual respect are the cornerstones of every relationship, including with your kids, but after that some of parenting is just "winging it" and hoping you are doing the right things for your family.

As for the OP, I won't criticize someone who feels that there is an occasional reason to spank as a means to communicate a consequence. For example, I gave my two year old son a spank when he continually wanted to run away from me on walks, potentially into traffic or other dangerous situations. It was effective when words couldn't deliver that message and he lacked the reasoning capacity to control his own behaviour. I would define an acceptable spank as a "hand-to-bum" shot on a clothed bottom.

Let's be clear though - I don't condone any kind of abuse - spankings are generally more about parents venting their own frustrations on a child rather than teaching any objective lessons. I agree those can leave indelible marks that last a lifetime ...
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Very well said, PeaceBaby.

This has nothing to do with spanking or discipline but it does have to do with a wider interpretation of the thread topic:

Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity | Video on TED.com

And it speaks specifically to what PeaceBaby says: what works for one is guaranteed not to work for all. The "best" way to parent, IMO, is to forget philosophies and techniques and mindfully respond to each individual child as they need to be responded to.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
^ Thanks Ivy. :)

With the perspective I have now, I wonder sometimes whether I've done my kids any big favours by holding myself to this almost impossible parenting standard. Don't get me wrong - I don't regret my choices - I feel they were the right ones for me. I volunteered at their schools, did all kinds of stuff for them and with them, BUT, I could barely live up to all that commitment, that view of "parenting perfection" and didn't take as good care of myself as I should have. I certainly was tired a LOT! There was a point in their early teens where I had really burnt myself out and even now I can put myself last in line too easily. Have to be careful about that!

There are always pros and cons of any choice, always.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
The desire to be the perfect Mom ... be careful not to be lured into the pleasing deception of that.

There's also the danger of flirting with "holier than thou" statements in threads like these, even if unintended.

There were issues from my own childhood that I never wanted my kids to feel subjected to. Spanking was one of them. So I made conscious choices I felt would facilitate a certain result in my kids' lives. I read, noted and put into practice positive information from books that were popular when my kids were going through different developmental stages.

I now have two young people stepping out into their adult lives and it's interesting to note that what "worked" for one child did not appear to "work" for the other. It was always a balancing act to understand each child and offer what I believed they needed at the time. And despite all that's great about what you do in your job as a parent, each child needs to rebel in their own way in order to help establish their independence, and will complain about SOMETHING that you did or didn't do. Each will likely feel that there was something challenging about their upbringing. No matter how "perfect" you try to get it, or how diligently you apply some magic parenting formula.

My point I guess, simply put, is there is no formula.

As for the OP, I won't criticize someone who feels that there is an occasional justifiable reason to spank as a means to communicate a consequence. For example, I gave my two year old son a spank when he continually wanted to run out away from me on walks, potentially into traffic or other dangerous situations. It was effective when words couldn't deliver that message and he lacked the reasoning capability to control his own behaviour.

This is just an open sharing of ideas. No competition as to "who's the better parent". I find it much more natural to judge ideas than people.:hug: So I am in no way saying that a good parent is one who doesn't spank, or that a bad parent is one who does. So long as nothing currently illegal happens to the child, the child is the ultimate judge of rather or not they had a good parent.

I'm simply talking about spanking as a respectful and effective means(or not) of communicating our ideas to children or getting them to follow our lead. I don't see any evidence that says that spanking is effective in accomplishing any of the above things. There was a time, in fairly recent history, when there was no such thing as child abuse. Why should we prescribe to the change? We don't accept the things that used to be done anymore, the things that were commonplace, because overtime a lot of people thought those things to be wrong. Why?

When slavery was commonplace(and I am not comparing spanking to slavery ok??!!lolz..just talking about an ideological/sociological shift), many people just accepted it as common and even necessary. Releasing slaves would be dangerous to society, to free people, to even the slaves themselves. After all, slaves weren't even fully capable of thinking(so the belief went). Back then it was believed that it was the responsibility of the slave master to control his slave, for the benefit of everyone. Obviously, and thankfully, times changed. But it was people, particularly outnumbered abolitionist, that did something to change it. The thought of blatantly controlling other non-criminal adults is now horrific, although lots of people do believe that we are still controlled(and I'll leave those arguments to them. See: The Matrix):D. People didn't believe there was a way for all of us to interact with civility, but here we are..sniffles.:hug:
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
This is just an open sharing of ideas. No competition as to "who's the better parent". I find it much more natural to judge ideas than people.:hug: So I am in no way saying that a good parent is one who doesn't spank, or that a bad parent is one who does. So long as nothing currently illegal happens to the child, the child is the ultimate judge of rather or not they had a good parent.
But you have said exactly the contrary multiple times in this thread. You believe that people who do not think their parents were wrong to have spanked them when they were children are in denial and repressing pain, do you not?
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
But you have said exactly the contrary multiple times in this thread. You believe that people who do not think their parents were wrong to have spanked them when they were children are in denial and repressing pain, do you not?

It's not so much what I think, it what many psychologist have said over and over-some for almost 100 years. It's what many psychiatrist have said. It's what many many medical doctors are now saying, and child educators, and those who have studied childhood pedagogy in the West. Even some neuroscientist are also saying it. I happen to believe them based on the evidence they have presented. If spanking is good for children, I simply want to know where the evidence is. I have never seen it and I'm genuinely interested. I'm an NFP! I'm open....

Rather or not the child sees the parent as "good" or "bad" doesn't change the effects of spanking IF they are as real as is being said. I think I have a great mother. She spanked me. She did a lot of other things I can't stand too, and still does. Nonetheless, I still love her to death. She is one of my best friends. I am also aware that her spanking me did nothing to make me a "good" person, nor did it control me in the long-run(even when I truly needed her guidance).
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
It's not so much what I think, it what many psychologist have said over and over-some for almost 100 years. It's what many psychiatrist have said. It's what many many medical doctors are now saying, and child educators, and those who have studied childhood pedagogy in the West. Even some neuroscientist are also saying it. I happen to believe them based on the evidence they have presented. If spanking is good for children, I simply want to know where the evidence is. I have never seen it and I'm genuinely interested. I'm an NFP! I'm open....

Rather or not the child sees the parent as "good" or "bad" doesn't change the effects of spanking IF they are as real as is being said. I think I have a great mother. She spanked me. She did a lot of other things I can't stand too, and still does. Nonetheless, I still love her to death. She is one of my best friends. I am also aware that her spanking me did nothing to make me a "good" person, nor did it control me in the long-run(even when I truly needed her guidance).
So as long as people's perceptions agree with yours, they are valid judges of their parents' parenting?
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
So as long as people's perceptions agree with yours, they are valid judges of their parents' parenting?

The child/adult child is the judge of rather or not they had a "good parent", but their opinion of their parents doesn't change the impact of their parent's actions.

My opinion means nothing in the grand scheme of things really. If a woman says that her husband's abuse doesn't really impact her children because he isn't actually hitting them....well, it doesn't matter. Every bit of research out there on children raised in abusive homes tells a completely different story. This is what you asked me awhile back ago:

Do you believe it is possible that someone could be okay with having been spanked and not be in denial and/or not have repressed pain, etc?

I am not the researcher and not the scientist. I simply brought up the issue, and presented the evidence that I have seen that has changed my mind. The research comes from people of multiple disciplines, and some of the studies began almost 100 years ago. You are saying the research is incorrect, and I am actually open to that potential. But I have seen no data, only opinions coming from spanking supporters, that suggest anything of the such. My opinion doesn't change reality, although that would be pretty nice indeed.

Ten Myths about Spanking Children.
Spanking hurts kids in long run - study | Article from Chicago Sun-Times | HighBeam Research
Why Do We Still Spank (Hit) Children? The Problem With Physical (Corporal) Punishment | Psychology Today
Spanking can create defiant kids, report says
UNC study shows link between spanking and physical abuse —
SPANKING SPURS MISBEHAVIOR, STUDY CLAIMS. - Free Online Library
Spanking May Cause Long-Term Harm - CBS News
Why It Hurts To Spank A Child
"I Was Spanked And I'm Fine!" - The Natural Child Project

I spanked my first child, who is actually a child I took custody of when his mother couldn't care for him. I was 21 when I first began caring for him, and I was a full-time college student, and employee living almost 1,000 miles from any close family. I had no clue what to do with him, but I knew I loved him and wanted the best for him. I lived in a dorm with 3 other college students, and we managed.

When he did something I found to be highly objectionable, I spanked him. I didn't actually know any better, but I knew what I knew. It got his attention. It took me a few years to actually look into the whole thing; and when I did, I couldn't believe what I saw. Suddenly, things started falling to place in my mind and I began testing out new ways to communicate with him(he was diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiance disorder, and Asperger's at 2.5). When his mother took custody again, she stopped spanking as well, something she still can't believe because she was raised in total and complete chaos. We worked together on the whole thing, and it was big learning for both of us. After my first's life changed for the better, and he got older, and the spanking ended, so too did his behaviors change for the better. Oddly, he also lost all of the previous diagnoses(and the psychotropics that the psychs had him on).

There are times when I'd love to knock mine into the "middle of next year" or just smack him one good time. Just one good time... But I don't, and I wouldn't. I think of something else to do. I have to. Just like I have to with everyone else in my life. The reality of what I could potentially be doing to him erases any positive that may come from that action in the moment....for me. For me.

If you are truly interested in an alternative view to the long held one(radical when she started out decades ago, but not so much today)try writing to Alice Miller. She is PhDed in philosophy, psychology and sociology, and is an expert if there is one on adult repression of childhood pains caused by dominant pedagogy. Her website features reader's mail from people of all ages(hundreds and hundreds), all walks of life, all over the world, who have written her about the possibility that their current emotional status stems from childhood pains forced underground. You may completely disagree with her, but she's a good read if you're interested. Alice Miller - Child Abuse and Mistreatment
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
You can see I added a bit to my reply between my posting and your reply. Nothing significantly different, just refining a thought and enhancing the ideas I already presented. :)

This is just an open sharing of ideas. No competition as to "who's the better parent".

But it can come across that way.

I don't see any evidence that says that spanking is effective in accomplishing any of the above things.

I don't believe spanking is "right" or effective either, but you appear to be proselytizing your position on the topic. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts an "open sharing" as you mention above.

After my first's life changed for the better, and he got older, and the spanking ended, so too did his behaviors change for the better. Oddly, he also lost all of the previous diagnoses(and the psychotropics that the psychs had him on).

So you are concluding here that cessation of spanking is the result of his improvement?
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
I don't believe spanking is "right" or effective either, but you appear to be proselytizing your position on the topic. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts an "open sharing" as you mention above.

Ok.
Proselytize often comes with a negative connotation. I have my own opinion, based on what I have seen as facts, which I have presented. Most of the time strange and impossible ideas(such as women's equality, "child abuse", and the civil integration of the races in States) appears like "shouting nonsense to the masses from the mountain tops". You're either preaching to the choir, or talking to people who'd like to stick you the middle just for daring to bring up the subject and strongly express a contrary view.

People often feel personally judged when something they do and believe in is questioned. I've never seen people not get offended on the topic of spanking, no matter how they presented it. It's all touchy indeed.:yes:


So you are concluding here that cessation of spanking is the result of his improvement?

I actually listed a number of things that contributed to the change. Spanking was one of them. I mentioned an ideological shift that resulted in different treatment for him, and a completely different way of seeing him and relating to him that could never have included spanking. I think my spanking was simply an outward reflection of my inner thoughts on what was possible, and who the "child" was in relation to me, the adult.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
You've got at least one person here who also does not spank or "believe in" spanking who also thinks you're proselytizing. I suspect more.
 

Kangirl

I'm a star.
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,470
MBTI Type
ENTJ
OK.

1. Yes, there are many 'experts' who think spanking is abuse, and is damaging to children. There are also many experts who think the opposite. Drop by the parenting section of a local bookstore - there are lots of books on the attachment parenting end of things, and lots on the authoritarian end of things. Both have studies to cite. In fact there *was* a recent study that indicated authoritarian parenting methods resulted in happier, more competent children (I can Google for the news stories if you like, I know it was reported in the UK press).

2. You're sort of begging the question - in that you're assuming what's actually being argued. The argument going on in this thread is "is spanking and effective parenting tool or, is it abuse?" (to boil it down crudely) - most of ENFPers posts have already assumed that spanking has been conclusively found to be abusive, the end. This is quite simply wrong. There is no widespread agreement, in the general populace, or in the expert populace, on this point.

3. No reliable studies have ever indicated that spanking alone leads to unhappy, criminal/deviant children. None. None have indicated that spanking alone leads to happy, content children, either. It is virtually impossible to design a study in the real world that could give legitimate results here.

4. Yes, many social advancements have initially been met with opposition. This has nothing to do with their legitimacy. Slavery, yes. Women's rights, yes. But, you know? Eugenics, also yes. Just because something is met with opposition doesn't mean it's legit (doesn't mean it's not legit either) - it's irrelevant.

4. This sort of statement:
I spanked him. I didn't actually know any better
is, I think, what's sticking in a few craws here. That *is* a judgemental statement, no?

ENFPer, I respect your opinions. I understand how you're raising your kids, and I completely get and respect that. I hope you don't take this post personally, it isn't personal. I like you and your cute avatars and we generally tend to agree. I hope our disagreement here doesn't mess that up. :hug:
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
It's the "I used to think that, too, but then I learned the Truth" that bugs me about the timbre (not really the content) of this conversation. It bugs me when religious people use that line, too.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
OK.

1. Yes, there are many 'experts' who think spanking is abuse, and is damaging to children. There are also many experts who think the opposite. Drop by the parenting section of a local bookstore - there are lots of books on the attachment parenting end of things, and lots on the authoritarian end of things. Both have studies to cite. In fact there *was* a recent study that indicated authoritarian parenting methods resulted in happier, more competent children (I can Google for the news stories if you like, I know it was reported in the UK press).

Yes, on the authoritarian parenting for sure, and I think most of us here would say that's how we parent; including me. I have said that I believe permissive parenting to be just as bad as authoritative parenting. As far as spanking though, there isn't one study out there that says it is beneficial in the long-term. Spanking is supported by a belief about children, and the length of its use in our culture, not evidence-from what I've read.

2. You're sort of begging the question - in that you're assuming what's actually being argued. The argument going on in this thread is "is spanking and effective parenting tool or, is it abuse?" (to boil it down crudely) - most of ENFPers posts have already assumed that spanking has been conclusively found to be abusive, the end. This is quite simply wrong. There is no widespread agreement, in the general populace, or in the expert populace, on this point.

There is widespread agreement in the expert populace, and even with the general population in other countries, that spanking is ineffective. 107 large organizations have taken a position against it, including:

National Committee for Prevention of Child Abuse
American Academy of Pediatrics
Children's National Medical Center
American Association of Retired Persons
National Congress of Parents and Teachers Association
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
National Mental Health Association
American Psychological Association
The Menninger Foundation
The National Exchange Club Foundation for the Prevention of Child Abuse
Parents Anonymous, Inc.
Association for Childhood Education International
CHILDHELP USA
National Council on Crime and Delinquency
National Association of Counsel for Children
National Parent Aide Association, Inc.
American Association of Physicians for Human Rights
Parent Effectiveness Training
EPOCH - USA (End Physical Punishment of Children)
National Association of School Psychologists

Twenty-four countries have made it illegal for a parent to spank in the home based on the information available(and I don't necessarily even believe that is the way to go, but just for the sake of the info).



3. No reliable studies have ever indicated that spanking alone leads to unhappy, criminal/deviant children. None. None have indicated that spanking alone leads to happy, content children, either. It is virtually impossible to design a study in the real world that could give legitimate results here.

But the studies have been reliable enough for those who research the data in multiple disciplines to state a position on the issue, giving the practice an almost a unanimous hands down. Even organizations that are cautious about saying "let's completely stop doing this thing" will say, well, "let's calm it down a bit. Or lets try to not use it."


4. Yes, many social advancements have initially been met with opposition. This has nothing to do with their legitimacy. Slavery, yes. Women's rights, yes. But, you know? Eugenics, also yes. Just because something is met with opposition doesn't mean it's legit (doesn't mean it's not legit either) - it's irrelevant.

I total agree with you here. The enormous, centuries old data is what I think gives it legitimacy though. Not the opposition.

4. This sort of statement: is, I think, what's sticking in a few craws here. That *is* a judgemental statement, no?

I intentionally emphasized that for me, in my experience, this is what is. When I spanked, I truly had never read the data. I had no reason to. When I did, I changed my mind.


ENFPer, I respect your opinions. I understand how you're raising your kids, and I completely get and respect that. I hope you don't take this post personally, it isn't personal. I like you and your cute avatars and we generally tend to agree. I hope our disagreement here doesn't mess that up. :hug:

And I respect yours as well.:hug: :yes: I know most people spank, to whatever degree they personally find acceptable. Most of my friends are rare occasion spankers, and we make good happy anyway.:wubbie: I don't sit around picketing against spanking, and I'm not even sure about the whole passing laws against it. I don't talk about spanking irl either, so this has been a good outlet for me. Saying you don't spank at all, and believe it to be harmful irl, is a great way to have people look at you with the evil eye, not the other way around. So unless someone ask me why I do something, I tend to keep my parenting philosophy to myself and just do me.

As far as avatars go, I'm glad there is still someone left standing in here willing to flaunt some hot pants!;)

It's the "I used to think that, too, but then I learned the Truth" that bugs me about the timbre (not really the content) of this conversation. It bugs me when religious people use that line, too.

So it would bug you if a former smoker said, "In the 1960's, I believed smoking was harmless, but after all the studies came out showing it had a strong correlation to lung cancer, I quit."
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Most of the time strange and impossible ideas(such as women's equality, "child abuse", and the civil integration of the races in States) appears like "shouting nonsense to the masses from the mountain tops".

But we're not talking about those other issues. And if you had such a strong slant on the topic of spanking, then you should present it as such right from the start, not say you are interested in an "open sharing" of ideas. It's not open sharing when you basically tell every person who disagrees with you that they are wrong.

People often feel personally judged when something they do and believe in is questioned. I've never seen people not get offended on the topic of spanking, no matter how they presented it. It's all touchy indeed.:yes:

Yes it is touchy, pun intended. ;) But I am only calling you out because you sound a little too self-righteous, not because I disagree.

EnFpFer, I respect your opinions. I understand how you're raising your kids, and I completely get and respect that. I hope you don't take this post personally, it isn't personal. I like you and your cute avatars and we generally tend to agree. I hope our disagreement here doesn't mess that up. :hug:

I feel exactly the same way, so please don't get upset with me for trying to illuminate why some folks here are feeling "rubbed the wrong way" by the direction of this thread.

Sending you a bazillion :hug:!
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
So it would bug you if a former smoker said, "In the 1960's, I believed smoking was harmless, but after all the studies came out showing it had a strong correlation to lung cancer, I quit."

Overzealous ex-smokers are annoying too, and I've never smoked a cigarette in my entire life and I never will.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
But we're not talking about those other issues. And if you had such a strong slant on the topic of spanking, then you should present it as such right from the start, not say you are interested in an "open sharing" of ideas. It's not open sharing when you basically tell every person who disagrees with you that they are wrong.


Actually, from the beginning of the conversation, we were talking about lots of different issues. People were just saying what they thought and believed, and from the beginning, some disagreed with my original post, and some didn't. Coolness. It's become more focused on spanking because spanking was mentioned a number of times by different people.

But I am only calling you out because you sound a little too self-righteous, not because I disagree.


Not even quite sure how to respond here, but ok.


I feel exactly the same way, so please don't get upset with me for trying to illuminate why some folks here are feeling "rubbed the wrong way" by the direction of this thread.

I'm in no way shape or form upset with you, or upset in anyway actually. I assume the best of you and pretty much everyone else.;):hug:


So, to change this dead subject entirely, what are some things that you have done to prevent your little ones from doing dangerous things if you don't mind me asking? Has redirecting worked for you, or do you do something different?
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
The facts seem simple and clear.

Institutional slavery was abolished for the first time in 1833.

Women gained their emancipation in the 20th Century.

And child abuse was prosecuted for the first time in last 20 years.

Prior to these milestones we neither knew nor cared how slaves felt, and we neither knew nor cared how women felt, and we neither knew nor cared how children felt.

And today we are just discovering how we felt as children.

And rather than listen to our own pain, we blame those who are listening. And we mistakenly think it is the listeners who cause the pain.

But it is in the listeners that we find our hope and salvation.
 
Top