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  1. #81
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't think you can make an absolute link between US social woes and spanking. There are plenty of other screwed up things about the US that could be at the root of our woes. I think economic pressures and geographic mobility might be just as likely culprits.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #82
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    I have rarely spanked my child and when I have it was usually to grab her attention when she was about to do something dangerous.

    I have nothing against spanking per se other than I do not think it is a very effective discipline tool. IME, it was more of a stress reliever for the parents. When I think back to when I was spanked, it just seemed like an immediate stop to whatever action but not a teaching lesson of cause and effect. Paint the back of the house, spank...dont do that again. Ok, well then I should just paint that tree over there.

    Also, I want my children to know there body is their's. This is your body and no one can touch it unless you allow it, especially little girls.

    In our household I am fairly relaxed about structure, god help us if we ever have a j type. Most things are taken care of by talking it out, we have our good and bad days but nothing so awful. Most of my friends say my daughter is lucky to have me as a mom because she is very curious and has destroyed a lot of things, but it doesn't strike me as something to go nuclear over as they said they would. It's just a lot of experimenting and in my perspective it is a good thing.

    And this is all just with one child, I'm sure the next one will be different and my approach may not be effective the next go round.

  3. #83
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think you can make an absolute link between US social woes and spanking. There are plenty of other screwed up things about the US that could be at the root of our woes. I think economic pressures and geographic mobility might be just as likely culprits.
    Yes, I agree here absolutely. Although, there is such thing as economic violence, and psychologist Robin Grille has made some interesting connections between a country's pedagogy, and the degree of economic violence that occurs within.

    All that we can say, is that spanking does not work to prevent these things. There is not one bit of evidence that says it does. Aside from much evidence suggesting that spanking is harmful, to me-if spanking is ineffective in the long-term, I see no point in using it. When the realization sets in that spanking is no longer "working", then what? Is the parent rendered helpless at this point and without any tools to communicate with the child when a crisis occurs, or a point really needs to get across?

    Aside from the issue of respecting the child's body, I simply think it is much easier and effective for the parent to think of something else now, while the children are little, and still trust us, and still put our opinions close to the top in considering what to do.

  4. #84
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Yes, I agree here absolutely. Although, there is such thing as economic violence, and psychologist Robin Grille has made some interesting connections between a country's pedagogy, and the degree of economic violence that occurs within.

    All that we can say, is that spanking does not work to prevent these things. There is not one bit of evidence that says it does. Aside from much evidence suggesting that spanking is harmful, to me-if spanking is ineffective in the long-term, I see no point in using it. When the realization sets in that spanking is no longer "working", then what? Is the parent rendered helpless at this point and without any tools to communicate with the child when a crisis occurs, or a point really needs to get across?

    Aside from the issue of respecting the child's body, I simply think it is much easier and effective for the parent to think of something else now, while the children are little, and still trust us, and still put our opinions close to the top in considering what to do.
    I think, done correctly, that it does work. It may be a lazy method, but sometimes parents need a fast, lazy method.

    The thing is, so many parents really don't think much about parenting at all or have any kind of framework or plan. They just react, without considering whether or not it is effective.

    If you parent in this way, it is highly unlikely that you will do so effectively, regardless of your methods. If you parent consciously, I think you will have much better success with a variety of methods.

    In my experience, spanking really isn't very effective once a child is past the age of fourish. And I certainly wouldn't advocate it for every or even most issues. Just the very serious ones. If it is used for minor issues, it will lose its effectiveness, just like if you are constantly saying no or shouting at someone, they will tune it out. If it doesn't work, then I guess the only thing you can do is physically restrain the child.

    I think it is best to have the child used to obeying you while they are small so you don't have to deal with tons of major issues as they get older. What my grandma called "Getting your bluff in." If they are conditioned to mind and you are not a overbearing, inconsiderate ass about it, then they tend to be willing to accept that you are the boss.

    Yes, it sucks and it's not fair, but if I am legally and financially responsible for someone, I need them to cooperate with me. Most social mammals have social hierarchies and humans are not an exception.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #85
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I agree with your #1 there, but there are plenty of firmly attached infants and children with authoritative parents. (I am making a distinction between authoritative and authoritarian, like what'shername did in Kids Are Worth It, with the "jellyfish" and "brickwall" thing.)
    Yes, in fact, nearly all children with authoritative parents come out securely attached from what I've read, 92% I believe. Permissive parenting is likely just a bad(if not worse than) authoritarian parenting. Unfortunately, the public defines "permissive" parents as parents who let their children "do anything". That is not how the scientific community defines it when the studies are done. Permissive parents, insofar as the scientific community is generally concerned, are parents who are " "lax", inconsistent, use love withdraw as punishment, and who alternate the use of praise and punishment".

    I've never actually read "Kids Are Worth It", but I briefed it over just a minute ago on Amazon. Very cool way to put it all(ie, jellyfish, brickwall, backbone).

  6. #86
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Yes, in fact, nearly all children with authoritative parents come out securely attached from what I've read, 92% I believe. Permissive parenting is likely just a bad(if not worse than) authoritarian parenting. Unfortunately, the public defines "permissive" parents as parents who let their children "do anything". That is not how the scientific community defines it when the studies are done. Permissive parents, inso far as the scientific community is generally concerned, are parents who are " "lax", inconsistent, use love withdraw as punishment, and who alternate the use of praise and punishment".

    I've never actually read "Kids Are Worth It", but I briefed it over just a minute ago on Amazon. Very cool way to put it all(ie, jellyfish, brickwall, backbone).
    yes, that book was one of my parenting bibles way back when. and my dad (as i said before) was a jellyfish parent, while my mom was more of a brick wall, roughly speaking.

    another good one for me was raising a thinking child. but i can't remember the author.

    a child psychologist once spoke to a parenting group of mine, and she said another reason for not spanking is just what has been mentioned, that it will become ineffective and downright physically abusive when children grow older, leaving parents without any parenting tools when they might really need them.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think it is best to have the child used to obeying you while they are small so you don't have to deal with tons of major issues as they get older.
    But obedience is often dangerous to children. Who do they obey? Just safe adults or any adult? What happens when a "safe" adult(like an uncle, or minister, or teacher, or family friend, or even mom or dad) does something that violates them? Do they still obey? What happens when they are violated, and told that "they better not tell such and such"? Who do they obey then? When do they obey? What is a violation of a child, if being hit is not? How does the child know the degree of violation that is supposed to be "acceptable"?

    I think children should feel free to reject the ideas and actions of the adults around them, when those ideas an actions don't seem right to them. I don't think they should ever be punished as result, as the entire point of punishment is to push behaviors underground. But, it is those very behaviors that a non-speaking child displays, that help us to understand who they are, what they want, and what is currently happening with them. How can we relate to them(the real them, not the image we are all taught to put up), if we begin pushing who they are underground before they are even 4?

    Obedience is not intrinsically good, and there are too many cases of children who have been molested, and otherwise mistreated, when an adult/or older child they saw as an "authority" who they thought they could trust, violated them and took advantage of their obedience. Too many children have denied being violated(molested, or otherwise taken advantage of) because they feared a punishment, or directly feared disobeying a respected adult. One kid died in a fire recently because he thought his mother was going to spank him for playing with lighters.

    I agree that adults are the leaders though, but I think being a natural leader is very different from being "the boss".

  8. #88
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    you can spank as a way to discipline, but it cannot be out of anger. This confuses the concept between a disciplinary spank and hitting out of anger. Kids can tell, its pretty obvious. I have cut down my spanking to very little, but sometimes it is all you got disciplinary wise. Sometimes you need it to stop right now and discuss it later. I know alot of frustration seems to be about what others think about how we as parents handle something. This seems to be one of the drivers of being "lax", indecissive, etc.

  9. #89
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    But obedience is often dangerous to children. Who do they obey? Just safe adults or any adult? What happens when a "safe" adult(like an uncle, or minister, or teacher, or family friend, or even mom or dad) does something that violates them? Do they still obey? What happens when they are violated, and told that "they better not tell such and such"? Who do they obey then? When do they obey? What is a violation of a child, if being hit is not? How does the child know the degree of violation that is supposed to be "acceptable"?

    I think children should feel free to reject the ideas and actions of the adults around them, when those ideas an actions don't seem right to them. I don't think they should ever be punished as result, as the entire point of punishment is to push behaviors underground. But, it is those very behaviors that a non-speaking child displays, that help us to understand who they are, what they want, and what is currently happening with them. How can we relate to them(the real them, not the image we are all taught to put up), if we begin pushing who they are underground before they are even 4?

    Obedience is not intrinsically good, and there are too many cases of children who have been molested, and otherwise mistreated, when an adult/or older child they saw as an "authority" who they thought they could trust, violated them and took advantage of their obedience. Too many children have denied being violated(molested, or otherwise taken advantage of) because they feared a punishment, or directly feared disobeying a respected adult. One kid died in a fire recently because he thought his mother was going to spank him for playing with lighters.

    I agree that adults are the leaders though, but I think being a natural leader is very different from being "the boss".
    So far, I don't think my kids have had trouble reconciling minding their parents and rejecting anything any (and I do mean any) other adult tells them to do if it gives them an uh-oh feeling. I'm not worried about them learning to mind me and their father, because I know we are not going to hurt them.
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  10. #90
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    But obedience is often dangerous to children. Who do they obey? Just safe adults or any adult? What happens when a "safe" adult(like an uncle, or minister, or teacher, or family friend, or even mom or dad) does something that violates them? Do they still obey? What happens when they are violated, and told that "they better not tell such and such"? Who do they obey then? When do they obey? What is a violation of a child, if being hit is not? How does the child know the degree of violation that is supposed to be "acceptable"?

    I think children should feel free to reject the ideas and actions of the adults around them, when those ideas an actions don't seem right to them. I don't think they should ever be punished as result, as the entire point of punishment is to push behaviors underground. But, it is those very behaviors that a non-speaking child displays, that help us to understand who they are, what they want, and what is currently happening with them. How can we relate to them(the real them, not the image we are all taught to put up), if we begin pushing who they are underground before they are even 4?

    Obedience is not intrinsically good, and there are too many cases of children who have been molested, and otherwise mistreated, when an adult/or older child they saw as an "authority" who they thought they could trust, violated them and took advantage of their obedience. Too many children have denied being violated(molested, or otherwise taken advantage of) because they feared a punishment, or directly feared disobeying a respected adult. One kid died in a fire recently because he thought his mother was going to spank him for playing with lighters.

    I agree that adults are the leaders though, but I think being a natural leader is very different from being "the boss".
    When I say boss, I mean like the boss at your job, like most adults have. Not the marine guarding your block at Guantanamo.

    Children that are taught never to question authority are definitely very vulnerable to intimidation. I don't think that's a good idea and I don't think that just because you teach your child to mind that you teach them to never question authority.

    All parents should teach their children about appropriate and inappropriate touching. They should also explain about adults that hurt and lie to kids, give examples of the kind of lies that adults who hurt kids tell to kids they are hurting and why they tell those lies (the ADULT is the one being bad and does not want to get caught), etc. They should be taught that if an adult tries to do things that make them feel uncomfortable, that they should say no and get away from them and tell another (hopefully trustworthy) adult.

    I really think you can teach a kid to obey without teaching them fearful blind obedience. We all do have people in our lives that tell us what to do and being able to accept a reasonable level of being told what to do is not a bad thing.

    I think -- I know -- you can teach a child to respect authority without teaching them blind obedience. It's not an either/or thing, all/nothing thing.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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