• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Parenting Philosophies/The Role of Children In Society

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I don't think you can make an absolute link between US social woes and spanking. There are plenty of other screwed up things about the US that could be at the root of our woes. I think economic pressures and geographic mobility might be just as likely culprits.
 

Tewt

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
420
MBTI Type
ENTP
I have rarely spanked my child and when I have it was usually to grab her attention when she was about to do something dangerous.

I have nothing against spanking per se other than I do not think it is a very effective discipline tool. IME, it was more of a stress reliever for the parents. When I think back to when I was spanked, it just seemed like an immediate stop to whatever action but not a teaching lesson of cause and effect. Paint the back of the house, spank...dont do that again. Ok, well then I should just paint that tree over there.

Also, I want my children to know there body is their's. This is your body and no one can touch it unless you allow it, especially little girls.

In our household I am fairly relaxed about structure, god help us if we ever have a j type. Most things are taken care of by talking it out, we have our good and bad days but nothing so awful. Most of my friends say my daughter is lucky to have me as a mom because she is very curious and has destroyed a lot of things, but it doesn't strike me as something to go nuclear over as they said they would. It's just a lot of experimenting and in my perspective it is a good thing.

And this is all just with one child, I'm sure the next one will be different and my approach may not be effective the next go round.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
I don't think you can make an absolute link between US social woes and spanking. There are plenty of other screwed up things about the US that could be at the root of our woes. I think economic pressures and geographic mobility might be just as likely culprits.

Yes, I agree here absolutely.:yes: Although, there is such thing as economic violence, and psychologist Robin Grille has made some interesting connections between a country's pedagogy, and the degree of economic violence that occurs within.

All that we can say, is that spanking does not work to prevent these things. There is not one bit of evidence that says it does. Aside from much evidence suggesting that spanking is harmful, to me-if spanking is ineffective in the long-term, I see no point in using it. When the realization sets in that spanking is no longer "working", then what? Is the parent rendered helpless at this point and without any tools to communicate with the child when a crisis occurs, or a point really needs to get across?

Aside from the issue of respecting the child's body, I simply think it is much easier and effective for the parent to think of something else now, while the children are little, and still trust us, and still put our opinions close to the top in considering what to do.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Yes, I agree here absolutely.:yes: Although, there is such thing as economic violence, and psychologist Robin Grille has made some interesting connections between a country's pedagogy, and the degree of economic violence that occurs within.

All that we can say, is that spanking does not work to prevent these things. There is not one bit of evidence that says it does. Aside from much evidence suggesting that spanking is harmful, to me-if spanking is ineffective in the long-term, I see no point in using it. When the realization sets in that spanking is no longer "working", then what? Is the parent rendered helpless at this point and without any tools to communicate with the child when a crisis occurs, or a point really needs to get across?

Aside from the issue of respecting the child's body, I simply think it is much easier and effective for the parent to think of something else now, while the children are little, and still trust us, and still put our opinions close to the top in considering what to do.
I think, done correctly, that it does work. It may be a lazy method, but sometimes parents need a fast, lazy method.

The thing is, so many parents really don't think much about parenting at all or have any kind of framework or plan. They just react, without considering whether or not it is effective.

If you parent in this way, it is highly unlikely that you will do so effectively, regardless of your methods. If you parent consciously, I think you will have much better success with a variety of methods.

In my experience, spanking really isn't very effective once a child is past the age of fourish. And I certainly wouldn't advocate it for every or even most issues. Just the very serious ones. If it is used for minor issues, it will lose its effectiveness, just like if you are constantly saying no or shouting at someone, they will tune it out. If it doesn't work, then I guess the only thing you can do is physically restrain the child.

I think it is best to have the child used to obeying you while they are small so you don't have to deal with tons of major issues as they get older. What my grandma called "Getting your bluff in." If they are conditioned to mind and you are not a overbearing, inconsiderate ass about it, then they tend to be willing to accept that you are the boss.

Yes, it sucks and it's not fair, but if I am legally and financially responsible for someone, I need them to cooperate with me. Most social mammals have social hierarchies and humans are not an exception.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
I agree with your #1 there, but there are plenty of firmly attached infants and children with authoritative parents. (I am making a distinction between authoritative and authoritarian, like what'shername did in Kids Are Worth It, with the "jellyfish" and "brickwall" thing.)

Yes, in fact, nearly all children with authoritative parents come out securely attached from what I've read, 92% I believe. Permissive parenting is likely just a bad(if not worse than) authoritarian parenting. Unfortunately, the public defines "permissive" parents as parents who let their children "do anything". That is not how the scientific community defines it when the studies are done. Permissive parents, insofar as the scientific community is generally concerned, are parents who are " "lax", inconsistent, use love withdraw as punishment, and who alternate the use of praise and punishment".

I've never actually read "Kids Are Worth It", but I briefed it over just a minute ago on Amazon. :D Very cool way to put it all(ie, jellyfish, brickwall, backbone).
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
5,585
MBTI Type
INfj
Enneagram
451
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yes, in fact, nearly all children with authoritative parents come out securely attached from what I've read, 92% I believe. Permissive parenting is likely just a bad(if not worse than) authoritarian parenting. Unfortunately, the public defines "permissive" parents as parents who let their children "do anything". That is not how the scientific community defines it when the studies are done. Permissive parents, inso far as the scientific community is generally concerned, are parents who are " "lax", inconsistent, use love withdraw as punishment, and who alternate the use of praise and punishment".

I've never actually read "Kids Are Worth It", but I briefed it over just a minute ago on Amazon. :D Very cool way to put it all(ie, jellyfish, brickwall, backbone).

yes, that book was one of my parenting bibles way back when. and my dad (as i said before) was a jellyfish parent, while my mom was more of a brick wall, roughly speaking.

another good one for me was raising a thinking child. but i can't remember the author.

a child psychologist once spoke to a parenting group of mine, and she said another reason for not spanking is just what has been mentioned, that it will become ineffective and downright physically abusive when children grow older, leaving parents without any parenting tools when they might really need them.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
I think it is best to have the child used to obeying you while they are small so you don't have to deal with tons of major issues as they get older.

But obedience is often dangerous to children. Who do they obey? Just safe adults or any adult? What happens when a "safe" adult(like an uncle, or minister, or teacher, or family friend, or even mom or dad) does something that violates them? Do they still obey? What happens when they are violated, and told that "they better not tell such and such"? Who do they obey then? When do they obey? What is a violation of a child, if being hit is not? How does the child know the degree of violation that is supposed to be "acceptable"?

I think children should feel free to reject the ideas and actions of the adults around them, when those ideas an actions don't seem right to them. I don't think they should ever be punished as result, as the entire point of punishment is to push behaviors underground. But, it is those very behaviors that a non-speaking child displays, that help us to understand who they are, what they want, and what is currently happening with them. How can we relate to them(the real them, not the image we are all taught to put up), if we begin pushing who they are underground before they are even 4?

Obedience is not intrinsically good, and there are too many cases of children who have been molested, and otherwise mistreated, when an adult/or older child they saw as an "authority" who they thought they could trust, violated them and took advantage of their obedience. Too many children have denied being violated(molested, or otherwise taken advantage of) because they feared a punishment, or directly feared disobeying a respected adult. One kid died in a fire recently because he thought his mother was going to spank him for playing with lighters.

I agree that adults are the leaders though, but I think being a natural leader is very different from being "the boss".
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
you can spank as a way to discipline, but it cannot be out of anger. This confuses the concept between a disciplinary spank and hitting out of anger. Kids can tell, its pretty obvious. I have cut down my spanking to very little, but sometimes it is all you got disciplinary wise. Sometimes you need it to stop right now and discuss it later. I know alot of frustration seems to be about what others think about how we as parents handle something. This seems to be one of the drivers of being "lax", indecissive, etc.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
But obedience is often dangerous to children. Who do they obey? Just safe adults or any adult? What happens when a "safe" adult(like an uncle, or minister, or teacher, or family friend, or even mom or dad) does something that violates them? Do they still obey? What happens when they are violated, and told that "they better not tell such and such"? Who do they obey then? When do they obey? What is a violation of a child, if being hit is not? How does the child know the degree of violation that is supposed to be "acceptable"?

I think children should feel free to reject the ideas and actions of the adults around them, when those ideas an actions don't seem right to them. I don't think they should ever be punished as result, as the entire point of punishment is to push behaviors underground. But, it is those very behaviors that a non-speaking child displays, that help us to understand who they are, what they want, and what is currently happening with them. How can we relate to them(the real them, not the image we are all taught to put up), if we begin pushing who they are underground before they are even 4?

Obedience is not intrinsically good, and there are too many cases of children who have been molested, and otherwise mistreated, when an adult/or older child they saw as an "authority" who they thought they could trust, violated them and took advantage of their obedience. Too many children have denied being violated(molested, or otherwise taken advantage of) because they feared a punishment, or directly feared disobeying a respected adult. One kid died in a fire recently because he thought his mother was going to spank him for playing with lighters.

I agree that adults are the leaders though, but I think being a natural leader is very different from being "the boss".

So far, I don't think my kids have had trouble reconciling minding their parents and rejecting anything any (and I do mean any) other adult tells them to do if it gives them an uh-oh feeling. I'm not worried about them learning to mind me and their father, because I know we are not going to hurt them.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
But obedience is often dangerous to children. Who do they obey? Just safe adults or any adult? What happens when a "safe" adult(like an uncle, or minister, or teacher, or family friend, or even mom or dad) does something that violates them? Do they still obey? What happens when they are violated, and told that "they better not tell such and such"? Who do they obey then? When do they obey? What is a violation of a child, if being hit is not? How does the child know the degree of violation that is supposed to be "acceptable"?

I think children should feel free to reject the ideas and actions of the adults around them, when those ideas an actions don't seem right to them. I don't think they should ever be punished as result, as the entire point of punishment is to push behaviors underground. But, it is those very behaviors that a non-speaking child displays, that help us to understand who they are, what they want, and what is currently happening with them. How can we relate to them(the real them, not the image we are all taught to put up), if we begin pushing who they are underground before they are even 4?

Obedience is not intrinsically good, and there are too many cases of children who have been molested, and otherwise mistreated, when an adult/or older child they saw as an "authority" who they thought they could trust, violated them and took advantage of their obedience. Too many children have denied being violated(molested, or otherwise taken advantage of) because they feared a punishment, or directly feared disobeying a respected adult. One kid died in a fire recently because he thought his mother was going to spank him for playing with lighters.

I agree that adults are the leaders though, but I think being a natural leader is very different from being "the boss".

When I say boss, I mean like the boss at your job, like most adults have. Not the marine guarding your block at Guantanamo.

Children that are taught never to question authority are definitely very vulnerable to intimidation. I don't think that's a good idea and I don't think that just because you teach your child to mind that you teach them to never question authority.

All parents should teach their children about appropriate and inappropriate touching. They should also explain about adults that hurt and lie to kids, give examples of the kind of lies that adults who hurt kids tell to kids they are hurting and why they tell those lies (the ADULT is the one being bad and does not want to get caught), etc. They should be taught that if an adult tries to do things that make them feel uncomfortable, that they should say no and get away from them and tell another (hopefully trustworthy) adult.

I really think you can teach a kid to obey without teaching them fearful blind obedience. We all do have people in our lives that tell us what to do and being able to accept a reasonable level of being told what to do is not a bad thing.

I think -- I know -- you can teach a child to respect authority without teaching them blind obedience. It's not an either/or thing, all/nothing thing.
 

lowtech redneck

New member
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
3,711
MBTI Type
INTP
2. But of course, Piaget was only offering up a theory. His theory cannot explain the Flynn Effect, for example. Or how a young pre-teen can ace courses in logistics, or graduate at the head of a college class of adults. I tend to side with Vygotsky, rather than Piaget, when it comes to the development of a child's cognitive abilities. If we expect that children "can't", then we will never offer up opportunities, or the level of trust, that prove otherwise.The Educational Theory of Lev Semenovich Vygotsky: an analysis

Neither the Flynn effect nor the existence of exceptionally gifted children are contrary to Piaget's theory; improved early childhood nutrition and education provide a better foundation for later intellectual development to build upon, and exceptionally gifted kids would go through the same developmental stages as their peers, just faster, the same as some exceptional children develop physically much quicker than other children.

I'll echo others statements that spanking can't be shown to contribute to general societal ills, and that children who are raised to be obedient to parents are not predisposed to be indiscriminantly obedient to other adults. For that matter, children that are trusting/cooperative with parents are not particularly likely to be trusting/cooperative with outsiders unless they are specifically taught and habituated to be so, which in turn is VERY reflective of adult society (research the differences between "bridging" social capital and "bonding" social capital). Finally, a child who is old enough to know what action causes a spanking will not subsequently view its mother-centric world as insecure/unjust/hostile unless the mother applies the punishment inconsistently.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
Neither the Flynn effect nor the existence of exceptionally gifted children are contrary to Piaget's theory; improved early childhood nutrition and education provide a better foundation for later intellectual development to build upon, and exceptionally gifted kids would go through the same developmental stages as their peers, just faster, the same as some exceptional children develop physically much quicker than other children.

Piaget's theory suggest that at particularly ages we all go through different stages of development. It is the common way to view things, but unfortunately, it hinders the growth of many many children who do not fit the "expected" mold.
Many revolutionaries in education began their work because they realized something was wrong with Piaget's theory. In part, this is the reason many children "don't fit in" in traditional schools.

One of those revolutionaries was Daniel Green, who started the Sudbury Valley School. At Sudbury Valley, children from the age of 4/5-18 create the school that they want through town hall meeting. There are no "teachers". The adults are equal to the children, and the school is run by a vote, with everyone carrying one vote. Naturally, the children hold a majority. The bylaws, the budget, the judicial committee, the corporations, are all run by the children beginning at age 4. The public, and many private schools, may be convinced of Piaget, but after spending a few days in a school like this, most people will have forgotten him.

From what I've seen, if a child is with adults who constantly explain the "whys" and the "hows" and are willing to go deeper and deeper into a subject, by the time the are 3-4ish, many are thinking critically. There are so many things that are possible in the world, and every generation we find this to be true. Critical thinking in young children - Google Books

I'll echo others statements that spanking can't be shown to contribute to general societal ills, and that children who are raised to be obedient to parents are not predisposed to be indiscriminantly obedient to other adults. For that matter, children that are trusting/cooperative with parents are not particularly likely to be trusting/cooperative with outsiders unless they are specifically taught and habituated to be so, which in turn is VERY reflective of adult society (research the differences between "bridging" social capital and "bonding" social capital). Finally, a child who is old enough to know what action causes a spanking will not subsequently view its mother-centric world as insecure/unjust/hostile unless the mother applies the punishment inconsistently.

The ideology/pedagogy that supports spanking can be show to contribute to societal ills. Raising obedient/spanked children(the general American pedagogy) does not produce happy, healthy, adults. Can you show me something that says that spanking and obedience produces happy, healthy, emotionally/socially competent adults? If not, what does spanking "work" to do in the long-term?

A violation of the child usually does take trust, and I don't know too many children who are weary of other adults(besides their parents) beyond the age of 4 when most children enter pre-school. And even if they are weary of adults, they are nonetheless expected to go in and "put on a happy face". Beginning around 3, and sometimes before if the child was in daycare, they are expected to listen to and follow the rules of a number of strange adults. The mother or father may have very well just met the strange caretakers the very day the child is to attend, or perhaps a few days before; but nonetheless, the parents and the child are expected to trust this strange person to put the needs of the young child(and however many others) first. Children are taught, at a very young age, that other "adults" are to be respected, and upheld as authority figures-even if they don't know them, and even if these other adults can and do pose a very real threat to the child's existence and mental health(the adult is aware of this).

The message seems very clear to me. The child does not need to really "know" the adults who care for him in order to be expected to obey them. The child does not need to approve of the actions of the adult in order to feel compelled(through teaching) to listen to the adult against his own desires or will. This is the entire point of Western pedagogy, to bring the will of the child in line with the dominant culture-to "socialize". That other adults are given parental pre-approval seems irrelevant to me. Most children who are killed are killed by their parents. Most children who are molested are molested by a family member or close friend. It is the case that not all parents love their children in the first place, but it is true that all children love their parents. This is all so easy to take advantage of. Obedience is convenient to the adult, but has been quite dangerous for the child.

There is a book called "Inventing The Child" which put a lot of this into perspective for me. The book analyze culture and literature; particularly, it examines how the cultural stories we repeat over and over essentially help us to reinforce the ideas of the dominant culture(in this case, dominant pedagogy). Analysis are made of Grimm's Little Red Riding Hood, and appropriate questions are asked. Firstly, why do we repeat this story? It is a story of a young, trusting, little girl whose mother sends her into the woods with a predator(the wolf). The mother is aware that predator exist in the woods, so offers her daughter a light precaution, but no protection(the mother doesn't go into the woods herself). The child is sent off to give her grandmother a fruit basket. You know the story...The moral is that "the world out there" is a dangerous place. An alternative view is that the danger was in Little Red Riding Hood's house, and the dangerous "thing" was her mother indeed. As it was her mother who took advantage of her trust, and literally threw her out with the wolves.

The author examines Hansel and Gretal, again children left alone to be devoured by predators. He then compares the above stories to our modern day stories, particularly stories that we all love created by Disney. Over and over the theme is: children left alone, with parents who have often been tragically murdered or killed somehow. The child is left to fend for himself, but in the end, all is well when they go off and marry a prince(or, in the case of the prince, rule the world/land). The message these stories send? The author believes it is that children are all alone in this world, left to encounter danger and death-to no fault of their parents, of course(after all, they died, or were weak, or just couldn't help). But in the end, we all turn out just fine, and so what really is the big deal with the way children are treated anyway? Most of us grow up mysteriously happy and healthy, no matter what was done to us.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
A lot of those horrible stories are just to con girls into doing a bunch of sucky housework!

I think you are minimizing the dangers of children not obeying parents. And the possibility of parents who explain the whys and hows, while teaching obedience. (My sons, for example, score very high on critical thinking compared to their peers.) There is no reason you have to talk down to or refuse to explain things kids just because you expect them to do what you ask them to do.

Edit: Also, most of the people that kill their kids/step-kids are mentally ill and/or on drugs. I don't think obedience/trust is a huge factor in this. Even if you don't trust or obey your dad/step-dad, he can still hunt you down where you're hiding in the closet and shoot you in the head.
 

Wiley45

New member
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
669
MBTI Type
INFP
Locking up in your respective room punishment doesn't work. Locking up in a stale boring environment like for example bathroom or staircase does however. xD

Funny. My INTP friend insists that this is true, also, but it never worked with me. I was in a world of my own and never minded sitting in an empty room doing nothing. I think it depends on the kid.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
My INTP husband's mother used to punish him by making him come out of his room.
 

Wild horses

New member
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
1,916
MBTI Type
ENFP
Apparently there is a new age philosophy which I thought was quite sweet... it said, "When your kids are babies treat them as Kings, when they are children treat them as princes and when they are adults treat them as friends" Obviously I didn't like the sexism but the sentiment was sweet! :D :wubbie:
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
Apparently there is a new age philosophy which I thought was quite sweet... it said, "When your kids are babies treat them as Kings, when they are children treat them as princes and when they are adults treat them as friends" Obviously I didn't like the sexism but the sentiment was sweet! :D :wubbie:

I think that's sweet too.:wubbie:
 

Kangirl

I'm a star.
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,470
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I still don't really see the connection of any of that (the long post above from ENFPer) to spanking.

Spanking hasn't been shown to contribute to societal ills. No study has shown this. And it would be impossible anyway, to isolate spanking. We might as well say well most deviants/criminals drank watched X TV show or drank orange juice, and blame crime on that.

And to agree with some other posters, I think rules - the rules of society - are things children necessarily have to learn. To boil this down completely: if you do bad shit, bad shit gonna happen to you. That is a lesson kids need to learn, to survive and function in the world. The world does not revolve around you. You must work with others and take others, as well as yourself, into account.

Spanking, to me, is just another form of coercion (again, mentioned previously) and I don't personally think it's generally better or worse than most other forms of it. Nor do I believe children as young as 4 (!) are capable of 'handling' themselves. No way. Coercion is a part of parenting, it is the parent's JOB to stop their kids from doing things that will harm them/others - physically, emotionally etc.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
Nor do I believe children as young as 4 (!) are capable of 'handling' themselves. No way. Coercion is a part of parenting, it is the parent's JOB to stop their kids from doing things that will harm them/others - physically, emotionally etc.

I also believe it's the parents job to protect the child from harm. I just believe, as many psychologist and educators, that hitting a child is harm(rather it hurts physically, or not. Leaves a mark, or not).

I have not see any evidence, from multiple independent studies, showing that spanking "works" to create emotionally healthy, happy, independent, adults. Where is the evidence?? I need data folks, and I don't see any. Further, just in talking to people and from my own experience, kids start figuring out ways around their parents punishments around the age that they begin. They lie, they sneak,etc...How can a parent protect their child, if they don't even know what their child is doing?
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I also believe it's the parents job to protect the child from harm. I just believe, as many psychologist and educators, that hitting a child is harm(rather it hurts physically, or not. Leaves a mark, or not).

I have not see any evidence, from multiple independent studies, showing that spanking "works" to create emotionally healthy, happy, independent, adults. Where is the evidence?? I need data folks, and I don't see any. Further, just in talking to people and from my own experience, kids start figuring out ways around their parents punishments around the age that they begin. They lie, they sneak,etc...How can a parent protect their child, if they don't even know what their child is doing?
You're kind of painting a broad spectrum of parenting styles with a very broad brush.
 
Top