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  1. #41
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think perhaps the theory that there are no significant changes in the brain after four years of age is based on obsolete data.
    The newer theory concerning brain development is that neurogenesis happens throughout the life cycle, and does not end at age 25. The frontal lobe is now said to be complete at 25, but then of course, we go through a a period of sharp mental decline after a certain time in our development.

    If we hit as a means of directing those with a limited ability to reason(by comparison), I wonder the rationale for ending this means of direction prior to any age leading up to complete maturity.

  2. #42
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    The newer theory concerning brain development is that neurogenesis happens throughout the life cycle, and does not end at age 25. The frontal lobe is now said to be complete at 25, but then of course, we go through a a period of sharp mental decline after a certain time in our development.

    If we hit as a means of directing those with a limited ability to reason(by comparison), I wonder the rationale for ending this means of direction prior to any age leading up to complete maturity.
    When it ceases to be effective or other means have become more effective seems logical to me.

    I think it is great that families parent creatively and come up with less expedient solutions. I also think spanking can be a good method when used with wisdom and restraint.

    I'm sorry for what you experienced as a child. My own experience was very different and the wise and loving way my mother disciplined me (including the occasional spanking) was not among the things I feel she did poorly (and believe me, there are some).

    I know that is difficult for you to accept and that you are inclined to invalidate such perceptions . . . there's really no way to communicate effectively under those circumstances.

    Edit: Or rather, I'm not quite sure how to do so.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #43
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    +1 And Alice Miller has dug very deeply into the topics of mob violence and violence in general, and childhood shame, punishment, and spanking. Alice Miller: The Roots of Violence - The Natural Child Project
    Yes, read Alice Miller and weep. And if you have any tears left, read, "The Foundations of Psychohistory", by Lloyd Demause.

  4. #44
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    When it ceases to be effective or other means have become more effective seems logical to me.

    I know that is difficult for you to accept and that you are inclined to invalidate such perceptions . . . there's really no way to communicate effectively under those circumstances.

    Edit: Or rather, I'm not quite sure how to do so.

    Actually, it isn't difficult for me to accept your viewpoint, because I held the same one until about 8 or so years ago. And trust me, nobody could have told me differently. There were many things that I had to complain about, but being spanked wasn't one of them.

    My childhood was likely little different than most. I was never "beaten", or slammed up against walls, or any of that. For the most part, I was "control" spanked, which is what is popular when people advocate spanking. My mother cooled herself off, explained what I did "wrong", and then hit me about 4 times with either a wooden paddle, or a belt. I was also paddled twice at school in the same manner.

    I was not abused by the standard definition in the United States, but my perceptions of what occured then have changed(from acceptance to rejection), and I have been able to reach deeply and acknowledge the pain and hurt that existed back then(and the denial). I couldn't do that until fairly recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, read Alice Miller and weep. And if you have any tears left, read, "The Foundations of Psychohistory", by Lloyd Demause.
    I did weep, indeed. I have so many of her books now. Demause I haven't read yet(headed to Amazon.com now), but "Parenting from the Inside Out" is great for people who have children and wish to slay their own dragons prior to toe-the-line that society has carved out for them, insofar as childrearing goes.

  5. #45
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Actually, it isn't difficult for me to accept your viewpoint, because I held the same one until about 8 or so years ago. And trust me, nobody could have told me differently. There were many things that I had to complain about, but being spanked wasn't one of them.

    My childhood was likely little different than most. I was never "beaten", or slammed up against walls, or any of that. For the most part, I was "control" spanked, which is what is popular when people advocate spanking. My mother cooled herself off, explained what I did "wrong", and then hit me about 4 times with either a wooden paddle, or a belt. I was also paddled twice at school in the same manner.

    I was not abused by the standard definition in the United States, but my perceptions of what occured then have changed(from acceptance to rejection), and I have been able to reach deeply and acknowledge the pain and hurt that existed back then(and the denial). I couldn't do that until fairly recently.
    Do you believe it is possible that someone could be okay with having been spanked and not be in denial and/or not have repressed pain, etc?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #46
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    Growing up, all 3 children in my household were spanked. I wasn't spanked as much as my siblings because my parents could give me one disapproving look and I'd melt into guilt and apology, but I definitely got my share of spankings.

    My parents had a set number of swats, always tried to cool off before spanking if they were angry, and hugged and prayed with us afterward. We also got warnings before spankings and were only spanked for direct disobedience so we didn't feel confused or surprised.

    I don't recall feeling unloved, shamed or abused. I have struggled with depression my entire adult life, but I don't know that it's possible to figure out exactly why or trace it back to something like spanking.

    I've chosen not to spank my son. I take a lot of flack for it, since I'm the only one in my group of friends and family who doesn't spank, and they worry my son will be out of control. They're adamant that their way is the only one that works. I've tried to read books and materials, and use my common sense to figure out a plan that doesn't include physical violence.

    I do use short time-outs to corral disruptive or defiant behavior, since my son persistently pushes boundaries and needs to know certain things will not be tolerated. As he gets older, we can reason, but sometimes he has needed a quick, concrete consequence for unacceptable behavior. I also try to make him aware of how his actions hurt others -- if he's stopped after hitting someone and can see how they're upset, he feels bad, and I think that's positive. My goal is to avoid time outs as much as possible by anticipating his actions ahead of time and cutting off problems before they begin.

    I also make a point to respect my son, asking him to do things with a "please" and "thank you," just as I would want to be asked. I try to be cheerful about requests, though I'm still working on that. I don't like people barking commands at children, and I've also noticed my son repeating phrases the way he's heard me say them. Sometimes I think, "Wow, that sounds very rude when it's repeated back to me," and I change my way of speaking to him the next time. My parents would say that a child can't talk to a parent in the same way a parent talks to a child, but I disagree. I expect my son to listen and cooperate, but I still think he's a person who deserves to be spoken to respectfully. Instead of saying, "Cut it out! You don't talk to your parents that way!" I say, "We don't talk to people that way." Not just parents, but people in general deserve respect. Period.

    My parents believed you must break a child's will, but I have learned that most of the discipline problems I've faced are due to my own shortcomings. When I have the patience to stay calm, the foresight to be one step ahead of my son, and the focus to tune into him and get on his thought level, things tend to go very smoothly. When I don't leave myself enough time, expect my son to think and act like me, don't give him challenges to keep him occupied, etc. then I run into trouble and lose patience.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  7. #47
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I was spanked extremely rarely, I suppose because it did not work. My mother tells me that the rare times she tried to spank me (I was usually a wise-obedient-indipendent kid 95 percent of the time), I would try to throw chairs at my parents, bite them in the arms and neck, try to put fingers in their eyes, retaliate for days after a single spanking. I feel a little bit of shame when they tell me this, but I can see how I just saw spanking as the same thing as being hit by another kid and thus I had to protect myself.
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  8. #48
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Part of the reason I don't spank is that I was a nanny for many years before I was a parent, and I had to manage those kids' behavior without spanking them. So I had a pretty good repertoire coming into parenting, and saw no reason to add spanking to it. The handful of times I've spanked my own kids have been when my own coping mechanisms failed; when the stress of parenting got to me, and I backed myself into a corner.

    At the same time, I was spanked (rarely) and not only do I not think my parents were abusers, I know they weren't. They were, and are, supportive, loving, and healthy. They simply had a meme in their repertoire, one they picked up from the previous generation, and one I have chosen not to continue in my generation. Even though I've chosen not to spank my own children, and see the times that I have as personal failings, doesn't mean I can superimpose that onto my family of origin or any other family.

    It would be helpful if people acknowledged that coming to a realization about yourself, your childhood, and your parenting preferences doesn't mean you're "further along" than someone who hasn't had that realization, EVEN IF the way they feel now is the way you felt before your epiphany.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Part of the reason I don't spank is that I was a nanny for many years before I was a parent, and I had to manage those kids' behavior without spanking them.
    Yes, my best friend worked in daycare for a few years and I saw how they learned to keep things running smoothly without spanking, so I knew there must be a way to do that at home.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  10. #50
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Do you believe it is possible that someone could be okay with having been spanked and not be in denial and/or not have repressed pain, etc?
    Not too sure. I'm pretty convinced of what I've read, as it comes from a multitude of sources and has been thoroughly researched for nearly decades now. I have spent nearly a decade reading accounts of people who have eventually had the "epiphany". As psychology is an ever evolving field, in my mind, I do realize that the possibility exist that all the data, and the research is completely wrong. I also accept that human beings are complex, and we may never know everything. There could be a small group of people who do not have repressed pain. But the biggest indicator that spanking has affected someone in a deep way is that they do it themselves. It's almost like smoking. You may know that it's harmful to your health, but if you grew up in a smoking family, the likelihood of you smoking(irrespective of the consequences) is highly increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    I have learned that most of the discipline problems I've faced are due to my own shortcomings. When I have the patience to stay calm, the foresight to be one step ahead of my son, and the focus to tune into him and get on his thought level, things tend to go very smoothly. When I don't leave myself enough time, expect my son to think and act like me, don't give him challenges to keep him occupied, etc. then I run into trouble and lose patience.
    In my life, I have found the above to be so true. When I am having a breakdown in communication with mine, I look at myself. Most of the time I realize that his "attitude" and behavior is a result of our miscommunication. I put the responsibility of communicating clearly and effectively on myself, as the adult. I also put the responsibility of having creative, and non-violent means of communicating on myself as well. Whereas he cannot go to the library and read one of hundreds of different books on effective communication with children, I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I was spanked extremely rarely, I suppose because it did not work. My mother tells me that the rare times she tried to spank me (I was usually a wise-obedient-indipendent kid 95 percent of the time), I would try to throw chairs at my parents, bite them in the arms and neck, try to put fingers in their eyes, retaliate for days after a single spanking. I feel a little bit of shame when they tell me this, but I can see how I just saw spanking as the same thing as being hit by another kid and thus I had to protect myself.
    Wow. I put a stop on my parents too, and I was also rarely spanked, but I remember every last hit and I remember my sentiments at the time as well. Keeping those things in mind prevents me from doing the same to my own, and having the research to back it up really keeps me in line.

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