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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    How long would you estimate that takes to kick in?
    I don't think this is a quantitative question.

    And of course many childhood victims of violence do not become perpetrators of violence as adults.

    It does seem though that mob psychology does enable those predisposed to violence.

    We can see that here on this site where mob psychology has led to threats of violence.

    So it seems we learn the lineaments of violence as children which can be given an adult face by mob psychology.

    "The Mass Psychology of Fascism", by Wilhelm Reich describes the relationship between the psychology of the mob and violence.

  2. #32
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Another point that's important to me is the kid's individual temperament. I worked for 5+ years as a nanny, mostly in London, and it was an education to see how different small kids can be - just as different as adults. Certain children will never do anything to warrant a spanking. A stern word is enough to get the message across to these kids. And spanking could definitely have adverse affects on these sensitive souls. I want to respect that - to respect the child as an individual. There are, however, also children who basically don't get it if you try to use words, no matter how long or how many you try. If I'm ever in a situation with, for example, a 3 yr old who has been repeatedly asked to stop doing something potentially hurtful to themselves or someone else, and said kid is showing absolutely no signs of listening, I would spank. No time out, no pleading, no negotiating. I tend not to be someone who negotiates will small, out of control kids.

    i agree about temperment. With my older son-the 13 yo enfp, spanking was useless. He would actually throw horrific tantrums an dspanking made no difference. He was kicked out of three daycares as he could not handle emotional overload or structure well and would just break down. We were so happy to go to kindergarden as at least they could not kick him out for good. We saw child psychologists, conseleors and spent a lot of time trying to figure out what we fucked up. In first grade he was put on ritalin, and he could control the emo overload then. We took him off in sixth grade and now at 13, you can distinctly see the hyperactivity and emotional issues going away altogether. He is actually a really awesome, if scatter brained kid. In retrospect I would say he couldnt handle the Fi well and would resort to Te to lash out, however it was so poorly developed, it just resulted in meltdowns and eventual emo sobbing breakdowns.

    Now the toddler is totally different. He is a little IXTJ. A smack on his little butt works wonders. He is a bull headed little obstinant creature and will look you straight in the eye and willfully disobey. 90% of the time he listens well and you can even rationalize with him, but that last ten percent-no way, he is on a mission to prove his point. A strategic pop her and there works very well.

    Today we asked him to throw a peice of paper in the trash. NO he said. This lasted for five minutes. Then, being funny, I picked him up, put the paper in his hand and took him to the trash can. I used his hand to throw the paper into the trash. He went insane and started sobbing hysterically. He was SO upset by this. He ran to the trash, picked out the paper and thrw it onto the floor, sobbing the whole time, visibly shaken. The he sobbed in me and dads arms for five minutes. He is a very tough kid, so I felt terrible, as I didnt realize how this would mess with his world.

    and yup, you guys will say they dont develop tert functions till the twenties. I disagree. They are there, just really not formed well-very subconscious perhaps? For the todd, you could see the Fi kick in at about 19 months.

  3. #33
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Violence against children translates in later life to violence against adults.
    I don't think that's always true. What if childhood violence made a kid depressed and hurtful towards himself?

    Besides, childhood fragility is a myth.

  4. #34
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Now the toddler is totally different. He is a little IXTJ. A smack on his little butt works wonders. He is a bull headed little obstinant creature and will look you straight in the eye and willfully disobey. 90% of the time he listens well and you can even rationalize with him, but that last ten percent-no way, he is on a mission to prove his point. A strategic pop her and there works very well.
    Sounds so much like my oldest daughter.

    When we had our younger daughter, I had to relearn everything because she's an IXSP. If I speak to my older daughter the way I speak to my younger daughter, she'd think I was incapable of getting to the point. If I speak to my younger daughter the way I speak to my older daughter, she would think I was being rude.

    Now at 16 and 14, they are both respectful, but opinionated and still just as different as night and day. Except that they are both smart and love anime. I'm glad they have that much in common.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #35
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    I respect this opinion, but I don't share it. Children, to me, are not adults. They do not have the same rights or responsibilities.

    If I'm ever in a situation with, for example, a 3 yr old who has been repeatedly asked to stop doing something potentially hurtful to themselves or someone else, and said kid is showing absolutely no signs of listening, I would spank. No time out, no pleading, no negotiating. I tend not to be someone who negotiates will small, out of control kids.
    I totally agree that children are not adults. They are more like newcomers to a strange and foreign land where the language, the people, the topography, and the customs are all new. What's the value in smacking a person around who doesn't understand you or your reasons?

    When does a person earn the rights to their body? That is, to not have others inflict unnecessary pain or discomfort upon them against their will?

    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    I don't think that's always true. What if childhood violence made a kid depressed and hurtful towards himself?

    Besides, childhood fragility is a myth.
    Many child psychologist do not agree that it is a myth, but simply that the damage goes underground(into the unconscious) only to later come out in the disturbed person that is the adult. Also, how is the presumed resiliency of the child a reason to intentionally cause them pain on account of their being smaller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    "The Mass Psychology of Fascism", by Wilhelm Reich describes the relationship between the psychology of the mob and violence.
    +1 And Alice Miller has dug very deeply into the topics of mob violence and violence in general, and childhood shame, punishment, and spanking. Alice Miller: The Roots of Violence - The Natural Child Project

  6. #36
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    I was spanked as a child. Got grounded for over a year once (sadly it was probably earned, I'd rather not go into details XD ), and so on.

    To be brutally honest though, I know I wouldn't've been nearly as well adjusted as I became without it either. It sucked at the time, and instilled a great deal of pure fear... but it worked. I really don't think I had much in the way of true reasoning capacity until I was about 12-14 or so, when it seemed to start showing up, I could 'think' but not in nearly the same fashion I do now. The idea of thinking things out long term and anticipating how things would react was pretty much 100% beyond me, I lived in the moment with no thought for whot would happen until after the fact. Drop in a short attention span and poor memory, and I'd often make the same mistakes repeatedly.

    Adding a sense of physical fear helped the memory latch onto things that were BAD, and slowly conditioned towards actually trying to avoid it in the first place, encouraging more actual forethought in the process.

    This's eventually evolved over time into the fact that I now try to avoid ever repeating a mistake I've made, and attempt to learn from other's mistakes so I don't suffer the same fate of wasted time, energy, and possible other unfortunate complications as well.

    This brings me to the problem I have with the "zomg don't spank kids >=O " the concept is great... in theory. But the theory relies heavily upon flawed assumptions, primarily that children process information in exactly the same way adults do. Very often they don't understand things the way we do in the slightest... and trying to explain that the stove is hot and dangerous can be painfully difficult to do, or to not play in the street. Having an element of fear that they RECOGNIZE can get the message across much faster. Saying yeu "might get hurt or killed" by playing in the road isn't something that all children will neccesarily believe or take to heart... saying "I'm going to spank yeu if I see yeu out there one more time >=O " and showing obvious anger over their action can instill enough DIRECT fear of doing so that they won't do it anymore. Indirect fear often just doesn't have nearly the same effect as they may not understand it in the same way. Sure, these days I may be horrified at the idea of disappointing someone I hold great respect for, but when I was say... 6? Pft if I got grounded to my room for a week it was far preferable to getting spanked, even if it was a much longer duration. Common sense NOW says that a short displeasure would be better than a long one, but I didn't think that way back then at all.

    It depends on how the child thinks and reacts though, if they don't seem capable of grasping explaining things carefully, then fear may be the next best option, as it has an immediate and lasting effect, and can be far more readily understood even at an early age.

    There's alot of parents who won't even attempt to discipline their children in any way... I think we've all seen the brat in the store screaming at one point or another, while the parent just stands by and asks them politely to stop, treating them as if they were an adult and thinking reason works just fine with them. It doesn't always work... some children it WILL work on, and for those situations it's great! The ones where it doesn't... well there's a simple quote that works quite well, being that only an idiot would keep performing the same action repeatedly, and expect a different reaction every time. If it doesn't work, yeu may be required to resort to force, as much as yeu may not want to. If it's the only way to get the message across, then it has to be done.

    Obviously I'm not saying to jump right at the whole spanking first thing, but once yeu've exhausted other alternatives, then don't be scared to. It *CAN* be taken to abusive levels (practically whipping in some cases...) at times, but it doesn't mean that by default it's especially abusive. Of course, on adults it would be by default, since they can think for themselves, and beating them doesn't teach them anything that yeu couldn't teach with discussion.

    The problem is that children are NOT adults, they are not just "little versions of ourselves". They think quite differently, and act differently. They don't have the same inhibitions, nor the same fears, or level of understanding. If I were to run down the middle of the street in the nude, the police would be after me in no time. (please don't imagine that XD ) but a little kid may often do so without even a second thought, especially on a hot summer day if there's sprinklers out in the yards. Obviously the mindset's different, and the capacity to understand social rules is not the same at all.

    But once again, I stress not to jump to spanking as the first thing to do every time... it has its' uses as a tool, but it has alot of risks associated with it as well. It does work well as a last ditch effort for a child who won't see reason otherwise. They're not reasonable creatures for the most part, despite that they do have the capacity for a degree of reason, it's just not nearly on the same level until later in life. Brain development plays a major role.

    Obviously, spanking a teenager really just doesn't work the same way as it does a 5 year old, as they view things significantly differently. The message would seriously not get across at all. So at some point, the need for it, even in exceptional cases, will be diminished to the point of disuse, in favour of other forms of 'behavioural encouragement'.

    The best option is to provide both a positive and negative reinforcement at the same time; punish when something's done wrong, provide rewards for when things are done right. If it's one sided, it's not nearly as effective. ESPECIALLY if yeu ONLY punish when something's done wrong, and don't provide warning or explaination in advance... then yeu're just stuck with a child who doesn't know whot to expect, they can become withdrawn and scared to do much of anything as punishment appears to be random without consistant application. Of course just heaping on praise and rewards at every opportunity, even if one does something wrong then something right after, need to explain whot it's for and make sure they understand. If they don't know WHY they're in trouble, they'll never learn the lesson. I'd had more than one occasion where I was spanked/grounded/etc for "think about whot yeu've done!" and I honestly DIDN'T KNOW. That just breeds confusion and doesn't do anything useful at all. It has to be clear and obvious cause and effect to make sense, just 'assumming' they know because yeu do as the parent is silly, because yeu have a much better idea of how to process information, and yeu actually KNOW whot upset yeu, they may not, and if yeu leave it to them to guess, they may guess wrong, and still do the same error again without understanding, or they may just start to hate yeu because they have no clue why they keep getting in trouble seemingly at random.

    In any case, tools are useful... if used right. Make sure to increase yeur toolset, leading by example, discussion before things become a problem, that kind of thing, are also highly useful. If yeu only have one tool (spanking), then everything will be treated in respect to it (if all yeu have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail).

    Of course this topic's waaaay past the original message now, but I don't want to miss my chance to put my two cents in XD

  7. #37
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I was spanked as a child. Got grounded for over a year once (sadly it was probably earned, I'd rather not go into details XD ), and so on.

    To be brutally honest though, I know I wouldn't've been nearly as well adjusted as I became without it either.
    I used to think the same, but now I realize that what I believed to be my assessment was largely based on my socialization(and was almost entirely the message that was being passed through my family for generations), and also upon hearing "This will hurt me more than you", and "I'm doing this for your own good" than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    It sucked at the time, and instilled a great deal of pure fear... but it worked. I really don't think I had much in the way of true reasoning capacity until I was about 12-14 or so, when it seemed to start showing up, I could 'think' but not in nearly the same fashion I do now.
    5 year olds have the same capacity for "reasoning" as do adults, but I do agree that the older you get, the greater your ability to draw on past experiences and make more holistic decisions. Many psychologist and educators believe that how well a person reasons is largely dependent on how often they are given the chance. From Daniel Greenberg,:

    At around four, people have at their disposal a fully developed sense of how to go about solving problems and how to go about making decisions; they have a sense of what they know and what they don't know, what kind of information they need to solve problems, and when they are out of their depth. This is very hard for people in our culture to believe about children. For some reason, most people think that judgment is developed much later. They aren't able to pinpoint exactly when --some say 13, others 16, others 18, or 21. I do not see any significant change that takes place after age four or so. When I look at a four or five or six year old making decisions, I see all the components of the judgment process that I see in a person aged forty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Adding a sense of physical fear helped the memory latch onto things that were BAD, and slowly conditioned towards actually trying to avoid it in the first place, encouraging more actual forethought in the process.
    I understand parents who spank their children in fear, but I think the issue is more or less a lack of creativity on the parent, and lack of foresight and pre-planning. I have an active little boy. Keeping up with him is pure insanity sometimes. Nonetheless, the only time his has ever been in danger, is because some adult in his life dropped the ball. In this case, imo, someone owes him protection, not pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    This's eventually evolved over time into the fact that I now try to avoid ever repeating a mistake I've made, and attempt to learn from other's mistakes so I don't suffer the same fate of wasted time, energy, and possible other unfortunate complications as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Common sense NOW says that a short displeasure would be better than a long one, but I didn't think that way back then at all.
    I was never spanked for my own protection, but always as a means of behavioral modification. Had I only been spanked for protective reasons, assuming my parents weren't regularly allowing me to risk my life, then I may see things differently. Past the age of 5, most parents I've seen spank do so because they are offended that the child "talked back" or did something that made them feel bad. I've also seen kids get spanked for their grades at school. I think it's all wrong, and have found other ways to communicate danger and displeasure to mine(one of whom-not biological- was diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder) until my husband and I began caring for him. I understand that everyone does the best the can at any given moment though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    It depends on how the child thinks and reacts though, if they don't seem capable of grasping explaining things carefully, then fear may be the next best option, as it has an immediate and lasting effect, and can be far more readily understood even at an early age.
    Yes, hitting anyone of any age sends a clear and concise message. It is easier to get people to do things when they are afraid of you, indeed. I just don't think it can be called a healthy way to communicate with another person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    There's alot of parents who won't even attempt to discipline their children in any way... I think we've all seen the brat in the store screaming at one point or another, while the parent just stands by and asks them politely to stop, treating them as if they were an adult and thinking reason works just fine with them.
    For every bratty child, I see a jerk/bully of an adult. I'd much rather hear the screeching of a young child who doesn't "get it", than the drama that many adults are capable of conjuring up. And considering that the youngest adults(age 21) were born in 1988, when virtually everyone was spanked, I msst say that I can't agree that spanking has "worked". Further, virtually every violent prisoner was spanked as a child. Where are all the crazy non-spanked criminals who grew up without any sense of self, limits, or control? I would reckon that the most emotionally healthy people in a society are the ones who felt the most loved, not the most disciplined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Obviously I'm not saying to jump right at the whole spanking first thing, but once yeu've exhausted other alternatives, then don't be scared to. It *CAN* be taken to abusive levels (practically whipping in some cases...) at times, but it doesn't mean that by default it's especially abusive. Of course, on adults it would be by default, since they can think for themselves, and beating them doesn't teach them anything that yeu couldn't teach with discussion.
    Wow, that just sent chills down my spine. What about adults who can't think for themselves? You know, the ones' who are mentally handicapped so severely that they depend on a kind adult for guidance? What of the elderly? Did you know that it's adults who can't "think for themselves", along with children, who are the most mistreated in our society? It is all abuse, and it all results from a desensitization to being mistreated. If someone else did it to us, why can't we do it to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    If I were to run down the middle of the street in the nude, the police would be after me in no time. (please don't imagine that XD ) but a little kid may often do so without even a second thought, especially on a hot summer day if there's sprinklers out in the yards. Obviously the mindset's different, and the capacity to understand social rules is not the same at all.
    Yes, I totally agree with you here. Children do not understand all of the implications for their actions, and most of the time, neither do adults at any stage in the game(18+). We are all on a learning continuum that never ends unless we die.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Make sure to increase yeur toolset, leading by example, discussion before things become a problem, that kind of thing, are also highly useful. If yeu only have one tool (spanking), then everything will be treated in respect to it (if all yeu have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail).
    I do agree that a parent's tool set should be diverse. But I think a parent's connection to their child should be their biggest tool. No one can watch a kid 24/7, and sometimes our adult lack of foresight prevents us from protecting our children before hand. Nonetheless, there are ways of informing children about hot stoves and such without hitting them. Now, do I know all the ways? No, but I know in my mind what tools I don't have, and they're the same tools I lack in any healthy relationship. I am pleasantly forced to look for ways to connect and respond to my child that don't involve intentionally hurting him.


    I appreciate your response!

  8. #38
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    hmm this might sound funny but I put my parents on check as a child, no sir was I ever gonna get spanked again. I had to educate my parents on how to raise me so to speak, very odd and dysfunctional in comparison to others.

    I have a lot of faith in the upcoming generations, they will be the ones to show us the way, to live...

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think perhaps the theory that there are no significant changes in the brain after four years of age is based on obsolete data.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think perhaps the theory that there are no significant changes in the brain after four years of age is based on obsolete data.
    I thought the frontal lobe matures at age 25...

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