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  1. #21
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Through the magic of Similar Threads (at the bottom of the page) I found an old thread of mine that is sort of related to this one:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...parenting.html
    Wow, you and I sound freakishly alike, and I can relate to your story almost entirely, even down to the age at which I had my first(23). We did the co-sleeping, I did the burnout, the realizing that maybe sole SAHMing wasn't for me afterall(after 3 years and never a babysitter/ or daycare), the extended nursing, the sling,etc....

    I don't strive to be good enough, but I have learned that accepting my limits when I'm faced with them is best. Jan Hunt, a child developmental psych asks parents to always remember that their children "are always doing the best they can do" with the emotional resources they are working with in the circumstance that they are in. I have learned to apply this to myself, but always keeping in mind that I have the right and responsibility to continue learning and growing. There are some things that in my mind I have made entirely unacceptable, like hitting or punishment, and I give myself no leeway. Other things, I have let go of, like 100% organic food 100% of the time. <-----Total pain in the arse!

    I've read through "Magical Parent-Magical Child", but haven't read any of Pearce's recent books. I'm not a huge fan of Byron Katie, but she really helped bring out my inner SP as far as accepting what is.

  2. #22
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    My parents are totally different than you! According to my father, the children will never be equals with parents. In a disagreement, there is no negotiation. I don't think I have enough age and experience to give a great opinion of my own here.

    Children should be able to look up to parents for teaching and models. They should learn and better themselves and their surroundings.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #23
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    In a disagreement, there is no negotiation.
    ...that's despotism.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think it's a complex network of relationships.

    In the large sense, both parents and children are people. The only thing that truly separates my kids from me is the dimension of time. I am twenty years ahead of them in terms of life experience. So if you picked us off the timeline and overlaid us with each other, we'd be the same -- we'd just be people with similar life arcs.

    However, with time added as a dimension, I am not the same as my children. They began as part of me, and the 20 or so years it takes them to leave home is a process of me nurturing, guiding, and protecting them so that they can slowly detach from being dependent on me and become independent human beings.... autonomous and self-sustaining. The structure and discipline and guidance I give them now will impact them for the rest of their lives, and I am in a very unique position with those three human beings that I am not with anyone else.

    As far as spanking goes, we used it sparingly... mostly when they were too young to communicate intellectually, when no other methods would work, and the price of disobedience could be extremely detrimental to their health. As they aged, corporal punishment ceases to be as effective in terms of raising an autonomous and altruistic adult who can initiate good will towards others, so we promptly reduced and then stopped using it. Our kids are extremely considerate of others for their age -- they are empathetic -- and yet are still exhibiting the freedom and joy of being themselves (usually ineffective parenting destroys one of these potentials), and I think we did the right thing. we weren't perfect parents, no one is, but we stayed on task and had the right priorities, I think.

    So kids really should be viewed as people, to sum this up (because they are), and yet the parents need to suck it up and be responsible for guiding/protecting/shaping them until they can finally be autonomous adults. Realistically, kids need encouragement and guidance that they can then pass on to their kids if and when they become parents.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Pretty much with Kyuuei on this one. Spanking doesn't bother me - what might bother me would be the reasons. For children who have difficulty controlling themselves or their emotions (by which I generally mean very young ones) I think spanking can be appropriate and effective in situations where they're putting themselves or others in danger. I would also spank a small child for extreme behaviour not related to personal danger (for example I'm thinking of the 2 year old having a 2 hour temper tantrum while mom tries to shop/do errands - the would definitely merit a smack on the ass). Depending on the child (and that's a BIG thing, for me, because all kids are different, and spanking will work better with some and not well at all with others) and the age, I think spanking can be a useful and good thing.

    I just don't see spanking as incompatible with respect for a child.

    I believe parents are capable of acting out of anger and would hope that I have the emotional balls to apologize and cop to wrongdoing on my own part when this happens. Whether it's spanking, yelling, or anything that was more about me being pissed off and emotional than about the kid acting out. No parent is going to live up to this ideal 100% of the time, but I intend to try. I think it's healthy for children to see that they're parents are fallible, capable of making mistakes, and then capable of taking responsibility and apologising.

    As to the 'purpose' of children, I guess I think there are many. The main one is to grow into a competent and content adult, though. To that end, I believe in plenty of unscheduled time, esp. with siblings and other children, just to play those games little kids do, and I also believe in a set of clear boundaries. A safe space to grow up in - safe emotional/mental space. I also know I have an overprotective streak that borders on neurotic and forcing myself to allow my children to do things for themselves and by themselves is going to be something I'm going to need help and support doing. Possibly a husband holding me down on the couch and repeating something like "CALM DOWN IT IS VERY UNLIKELY A TREE IS GOING TO FALL ON JIMMY AND KILL HIM WHILE HE PLAYS IN THE WOODS".

    One other thing I think I would like to do is have high expectations for my children. I want them to believe they *can* do it, that they can do the right thing, act responsibly. Of course I know they won't always, but the expectation is, imo, a good thing. Failing to meet the expectation would be met with talk rather than shaming, in most instances.

    So, in short, strong, clear boundaries, real and consistent consequences if they're violated, high expectations, parental admission of fallibility and space for kids to be kids and not small, overscheduled adults.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  6. #26
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    I just don't see spanking as incompatible with respect for a child.

    I believe parents are capable of acting out of anger and would hope that I have the emotional balls to apologize and cop to wrongdoing on my own part when this happens. Whether it's spanking, yelling, or anything that was more about me being pissed off and emotional than about the kid acting out. No parent is going to live up to this ideal 100% of the time, but I intend to try. I think it's healthy for children to see that they're parents are fallible, capable of making mistakes, and then capable of taking responsibility and apologising.
    Apologizing for wrong doing, yes, and in all relationships we make mistakes. That is so true. But I fail to see how hitting another person, particularly a person smaller/weaker and with less understanding, falls into the realm of respect/teaching or even discipline.

    Further, I think that sometimes people fail to recognize how vulnerable children are to abuse and mistreatment(even if they themselves were abused or mistreated in childhood).

    Of all children murdered under the age of 5 between 1975 and 2005, 61% were killed by either their mothers or fathers, with homicide being one of the leading causes of death in preschoolers today. It's all very sad. When you add in the fact that 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys is molested in childhood(with 80%+ of the perps being blood relatives or "friends of the family") I see a rare benefit in teaching children to "respect adults" on principle. In fact, I think the whole concept is dangerous, and works to protect sick adults who use their age or status as a means of protection. Child molesters have a less than 5% chance of ever being caught, from what I understand, and it's often because "no one would have suspected a "great father" or "wonderful priest" or "grown adult" to act in such and such a way.

    I have told ours that no one, and I mean no one, has a right to touch your body for any reason at all that you don't warrant or that we as parents aren't there to witness and approve. We've never allowed people to pat them on the butt in gest(it seems lots of people do this to kids), or "tickle" them all over. Another reason we never spanked was because we wanted them to realize that only they have certain rights to their bodies. Our culture has one of the highest rates of infanticide, and child abuse. I truly wish we were a "hands to ourselves" culture.

  7. #27
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I'm not against spanking (smacking) entirely but I do think a lot of it is done for the benefit (release) of the parent than the child, and that reason is very wrong.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  8. #28
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    But I fail to see how hitting another person, particularly a person smaller/weaker and with less understanding, falls into the realm of respect/teaching or even discipline.
    I respect this opinion, but I don't share it. Children, to me, are not adults. They do not have the same rights or responsibilities. Also, spanking to me is about an instantaneous message, a snapping-out-of-it, as it were. It isn't something that would be (coming from me) intended to leave marks, I am not talking about beating a child with a wooden spoon or punching them etc. Generally, a well-placed, stinging smack on the ass is what I'm talking about.

    It's also very important to me to emphasize, again, that I think spanking is not appropriate in situations where it's coming from the parent's anger. Spanking as well as yelling, screaming, any punishment of the kid, really. That *is*, imo, bullying. Again, all parents are going to make mistakes, but it is very important to me that I apologise in these instances. The kid, too, will be expected to apologize, once old enough to understand the concept, for losing their shit.

    Another point that's important to me is the kid's individual temperament. I worked for 5+ years as a nanny, mostly in London, and it was an education to see how different small kids can be - just as different as adults. Certain children will never do anything to warrant a spanking. A stern word is enough to get the message across to these kids. And spanking could definitely have adverse affects on these sensitive souls. I want to respect that - to respect the child as an individual. There are, however, also children who basically don't get it if you try to use words, no matter how long or how many you try. If I'm ever in a situation with, for example, a 3 yr old who has been repeatedly asked to stop doing something potentially hurtful to themselves or someone else, and said kid is showing absolutely no signs of listening, I would spank. No time out, no pleading, no negotiating. I tend not to be someone who negotiates will small, out of control kids.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  9. #29
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Violence against children translates in later life to violence against adults.

  10. #30
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Violence against children translates in later life to violence against adults.
    How long would you estimate that takes to kick in?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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