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  1. #11
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I was on the TCS mailing list for a few years when my daughter was little. When I realized that much of the advice was coming from a childless man, I decided I needed to go my own way. (That man was David Deutsche, a brilliant physicist and fascinating thinker, but not a parent.)

    Also read an interesting book recommended by my father-in-law called PET, or Parent Effectiveness Training. It sounds like the most boring thing ever but it was actually very practical and helpful about how to approach parenting non-coercively without being a doormat.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #12
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Thanks for the response there! Are you saying you don't believe that children should have the same respect? Do you believe that age merits respect?
    I do, to an extent. Trust me when I say I believe that maturity can exceed or be in lack of age. But age does warrant a lot of things. It's silly to assume that a 14-16 year old is going to make sound judgements at all times. I was allowed to do a lot, and got away with a lot.. mainly because I was good for my word growing up and pretty mature. And even I didn't make good decisions (of course I thought they were good back then..)

    I respect elders even if they don't always warrant it.. You'd never catch me cussing at an elderly gentleman. At the same time, you'll never catch me assuming that my 15 year old sister is telling the truth about what she's doing all the time. It's against her nature as a kid, and against mine as a protective adult.

    So I can't say I respect her the same way I would my older sister. But it doesn't meant I don't have a lot of respect for my sister.. Because I do acknowledge her as a person outside of the decisions she makes and the growing up she has to do. I'm not sure if I explained this right.

    Spanking was a huge part of my childhood as well. I'd like to think that I turned out ok inspite of it, not as a result. Do you think spanking helped you to become a good person?
    I have nothing bad to say about it. I was hard headed and pretty retarded as a young kid. I was imaginative and curious, and no grounding, yelling, or punishing would work.. but if my ass hurt, you better believe I won't touch the gear shift of a car again.

    My mom told me all the time to never go near the sinkhole in our back yard, that it was dangerous and the people were coming to cover it up.

    Of course, I went over there, and nearly died as a result. I got the whoopin' of a lifetime after my mom was done being scared for my life. I never went near it again for fear of that ass beating. I was SUPPOSE to be scared of it.. but if I couldn't be scared of it for the sake of it, I could be scared of pain. And I was. So, I'd say, it was the only thing that worked for me. My sister's, subsequently, weren't spanked nearly as much as younger kids than I was.

    If people opt out of it, no harm no foul. But I don't think it had any ill side effects of it, and was effective for my silly little brain at the time to comprehend.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Psychologists have realized that learning is a mix of Behavior and Cognition. The things we do can and should be regarded as both behavior and cognition. So the spanking to keep kids in line, eh. I don't like the idea of borderline-torturing your kid to keep his behavior in line before he knows better. Strict rules and a stern, serious, disappointing word with the kid should do the trick. Let's face it, we need parents. Why? for structure. You need rules. Otherwise, 8 year olds could just use their own reasoning and raise themselves. Check out Rafe Esquith. Legend educator.

    The other interesting thing I learned in Psychology though, is that punishment didn't do nearly as much as reward in experiments. Time and time again. Does it have a place still? Maybe. I don't think its good rapport between the parent and child. Now that I think about it, the parent should always be working with the kid in correcting behavior, never taking a consequentialist view on things. I think if you pry deep into kids' intentions (opposite of consequences), they'll always confront themselves and iron things out. A parent should never, obviously, flip the kid over to spank 'em, and go "this is for your own good" The thought of that makes me sick...

  4. #14
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Also read an interesting book recommended by my father-in-law called PET, or Parent Effectiveness Training. It sounds like the most boring thing ever but it was actually very practical and helpful about how to approach parenting non-coercively without being a doormat.
    P.E.T is on our bookshelf as well, and I am a supporter.

    I also love Alphie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" and Naomi Aldort's "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves"

    How is your father-in-law familiar with PET? That's so neat. My mother would have liked to have beat her future grandchildren with James Dobson's," The Strong Willed Child".

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    P.E.T is on our bookshelf as well, and I am a supporter.

    I also love Alphie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" and Naomi Aldort's "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves"

    How is your father-in-law familiar with PET? That's so neat. My mother would have liked to have beat her future grandchildren with James Dobson's," The Strong Willed Child".
    We both come from pretty unusual families. My husband's parents were about as counterculture and non-coercive as it gets, I think he would say to a fault (wishes they had been just a little more structured). His parents broke up when he was about 3 and he lived with his mother until he was 16 or 17 I think, and when he moved in with his father he basically treated him as an adult roommate.

    Mine were very religious but not mainstreamly so, and although they would lay down the law at times and I was spanked on occasion, they were actually very open with us. When school became unbearable for me in the 6th grade, a lot of parents would have said "suck it up kid" but my mom took me out and homeschooled me (in the late 80s when almost nobody homeschooled). That didn't really work very well either so she found a Quaker school that was very open-minded and cleaned two of the buildings weekly in lieu of tuition.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #16
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But age does warrant a lot of things. It's silly to assume that a 14-16 year old is going to make sound judgements at all times.
    Yes, I would agree. But I would think it silly to think that anyone at any age is going to make sound judgements at all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I respect elders even if they don't always warrant it.. You'd never catch me cussing at an elderly gentleman. At the same time, you'll never catch me assuming that my 15 year old sister is telling the truth about what she's doing all the time. It's against her nature as a kid, and against mine as a protective adult.
    Well, let me say this. I'm not a person who cusses other people...usually. So you wouldn't catch me cussing an elderly man either. But you also wouldn't catch me cussing a child. It's not the age of the person, it's just the fact that I usually don't cuss at people. It's not respectful. Now, that being said, there is the rare occasion when I would cuss at someone. Like, if someone was driving recklessly and endangered my life. Well, I occasionally get the rage on the road when things like that happen, and I don't care how old you are, if you can see my mouth moving, you know what's coming out aint pretty.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    you'll never catch me assuming that my 15 year old sister is telling the truth about what she's doing all the time. It's against her nature as a kid, and against mine as a protective adult.
    I assume that all people are telling the truth until further notice. I'm not sure what age(or status, or position of authority) has to do with telling the truth. I've been lied to by more adults than children, and the lies the adults told usually had a much bigger impact on my life. I think that part of the reason politicians and priest, or even child molesting family members get such a big chance to abuse those under their command(especially children), is because people wrongly assume that their authority or age means that they can be trusted.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I have nothing bad to say about it. I was hard headed and pretty retarded as a young kid. I was imaginative and curious, and no grounding, yelling, or punishing would work.. but if my ass hurt, you better believe I won't touch the gear shift of a car again.
    This sounds like something you were told.

  7. #17
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    I think if you pry deep into kids' intentions (opposite of consequences), they'll always confront themselves and iron things out. A parent should never, obviously, flip the kid over to spank 'em, and go "this is for your own good" The thought of that makes me sick...
    Yes, often times people don't even consider the intentions of their children. Or, they assume the worse of their own children, breeding mistrust from a very young age.

    Have you ever read, "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller?

  8. #18
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Yes, I would agree. But I would think it silly to think that anyone at any age is going to make sound judgements at all times.
    I made good judgements at age 14; I just deliberately ignored them and made bad choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Yes, often times people don't even consider the intentions of their children. Or, they assume the worse of their own children, breeding mistrust from a very young age.

    Have you ever read, "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller?
    QFT. No, I haven't read that book.

  9. #19
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Have you read any Joseph Chilton Pearce, enfpfer?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #20
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Through the magic of Similar Threads (at the bottom of the page) I found an old thread of mine that is sort of related to this one:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...parenting.html
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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