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  1. #111
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't believe spanking is "right" or effective either, but you appear to be proselytizing your position on the topic. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts an "open sharing" as you mention above.
    Ok.
    Proselytize often comes with a negative connotation. I have my own opinion, based on what I have seen as facts, which I have presented. Most of the time strange and impossible ideas(such as women's equality, "child abuse", and the civil integration of the races in States) appears like "shouting nonsense to the masses from the mountain tops". You're either preaching to the choir, or talking to people who'd like to stick you the middle just for daring to bring up the subject and strongly express a contrary view.

    People often feel personally judged when something they do and believe in is questioned. I've never seen people not get offended on the topic of spanking, no matter how they presented it. It's all touchy indeed.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So you are concluding here that cessation of spanking is the result of his improvement?
    I actually listed a number of things that contributed to the change. Spanking was one of them. I mentioned an ideological shift that resulted in different treatment for him, and a completely different way of seeing him and relating to him that could never have included spanking. I think my spanking was simply an outward reflection of my inner thoughts on what was possible, and who the "child" was in relation to me, the adult.

  2. #112
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    You've got at least one person here who also does not spank or "believe in" spanking who also thinks you're proselytizing. I suspect more.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #113
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    OK.

    1. Yes, there are many 'experts' who think spanking is abuse, and is damaging to children. There are also many experts who think the opposite. Drop by the parenting section of a local bookstore - there are lots of books on the attachment parenting end of things, and lots on the authoritarian end of things. Both have studies to cite. In fact there *was* a recent study that indicated authoritarian parenting methods resulted in happier, more competent children (I can Google for the news stories if you like, I know it was reported in the UK press).

    2. You're sort of begging the question - in that you're assuming what's actually being argued. The argument going on in this thread is "is spanking and effective parenting tool or, is it abuse?" (to boil it down crudely) - most of ENFPers posts have already assumed that spanking has been conclusively found to be abusive, the end. This is quite simply wrong. There is no widespread agreement, in the general populace, or in the expert populace, on this point.

    3. No reliable studies have ever indicated that spanking alone leads to unhappy, criminal/deviant children. None. None have indicated that spanking alone leads to happy, content children, either. It is virtually impossible to design a study in the real world that could give legitimate results here.

    4. Yes, many social advancements have initially been met with opposition. This has nothing to do with their legitimacy. Slavery, yes. Women's rights, yes. But, you know? Eugenics, also yes. Just because something is met with opposition doesn't mean it's legit (doesn't mean it's not legit either) - it's irrelevant.

    4. This sort of statement:
    I spanked him. I didn't actually know any better
    is, I think, what's sticking in a few craws here. That *is* a judgemental statement, no?

    ENFPer, I respect your opinions. I understand how you're raising your kids, and I completely get and respect that. I hope you don't take this post personally, it isn't personal. I like you and your cute avatars and we generally tend to agree. I hope our disagreement here doesn't mess that up.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  4. #114
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    It's the "I used to think that, too, but then I learned the Truth" that bugs me about the timbre (not really the content) of this conversation. It bugs me when religious people use that line, too.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #115
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    OK.

    1. Yes, there are many 'experts' who think spanking is abuse, and is damaging to children. There are also many experts who think the opposite. Drop by the parenting section of a local bookstore - there are lots of books on the attachment parenting end of things, and lots on the authoritarian end of things. Both have studies to cite. In fact there *was* a recent study that indicated authoritarian parenting methods resulted in happier, more competent children (I can Google for the news stories if you like, I know it was reported in the UK press).
    Yes, on the authoritarian parenting for sure, and I think most of us here would say that's how we parent; including me. I have said that I believe permissive parenting to be just as bad as authoritative parenting. As far as spanking though, there isn't one study out there that says it is beneficial in the long-term. Spanking is supported by a belief about children, and the length of its use in our culture, not evidence-from what I've read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    2. You're sort of begging the question - in that you're assuming what's actually being argued. The argument going on in this thread is "is spanking and effective parenting tool or, is it abuse?" (to boil it down crudely) - most of ENFPers posts have already assumed that spanking has been conclusively found to be abusive, the end. This is quite simply wrong. There is no widespread agreement, in the general populace, or in the expert populace, on this point.
    There is widespread agreement in the expert populace, and even with the general population in other countries, that spanking is ineffective. 107 large organizations have taken a position against it, including:

    National Committee for Prevention of Child Abuse
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    Children's National Medical Center
    American Association of Retired Persons
    National Congress of Parents and Teachers Association
    National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
    National Mental Health Association
    American Psychological Association
    The Menninger Foundation
    The National Exchange Club Foundation for the Prevention of Child Abuse
    Parents Anonymous, Inc.
    Association for Childhood Education International
    CHILDHELP USA
    National Council on Crime and Delinquency
    National Association of Counsel for Children
    National Parent Aide Association, Inc.
    American Association of Physicians for Human Rights
    Parent Effectiveness Training
    EPOCH - USA (End Physical Punishment of Children)
    National Association of School Psychologists

    Twenty-four countries have made it illegal for a parent to spank in the home based on the information available(and I don't necessarily even believe that is the way to go, but just for the sake of the info).



    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    3. No reliable studies have ever indicated that spanking alone leads to unhappy, criminal/deviant children. None. None have indicated that spanking alone leads to happy, content children, either. It is virtually impossible to design a study in the real world that could give legitimate results here.
    But the studies have been reliable enough for those who research the data in multiple disciplines to state a position on the issue, giving the practice an almost a unanimous hands down. Even organizations that are cautious about saying "let's completely stop doing this thing" will say, well, "let's calm it down a bit. Or lets try to not use it."


    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    4. Yes, many social advancements have initially been met with opposition. This has nothing to do with their legitimacy. Slavery, yes. Women's rights, yes. But, you know? Eugenics, also yes. Just because something is met with opposition doesn't mean it's legit (doesn't mean it's not legit either) - it's irrelevant.
    I total agree with you here. The enormous, centuries old data is what I think gives it legitimacy though. Not the opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    4. This sort of statement: is, I think, what's sticking in a few craws here. That *is* a judgemental statement, no?
    I intentionally emphasized that for me, in my experience, this is what is. When I spanked, I truly had never read the data. I had no reason to. When I did, I changed my mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    ENFPer, I respect your opinions. I understand how you're raising your kids, and I completely get and respect that. I hope you don't take this post personally, it isn't personal. I like you and your cute avatars and we generally tend to agree. I hope our disagreement here doesn't mess that up.
    And I respect yours as well. I know most people spank, to whatever degree they personally find acceptable. Most of my friends are rare occasion spankers, and we make good happy anyway. I don't sit around picketing against spanking, and I'm not even sure about the whole passing laws against it. I don't talk about spanking irl either, so this has been a good outlet for me. Saying you don't spank at all, and believe it to be harmful irl, is a great way to have people look at you with the evil eye, not the other way around. So unless someone ask me why I do something, I tend to keep my parenting philosophy to myself and just do me.

    As far as avatars go, I'm glad there is still someone left standing in here willing to flaunt some hot pants!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's the "I used to think that, too, but then I learned the Truth" that bugs me about the timbre (not really the content) of this conversation. It bugs me when religious people use that line, too.
    So it would bug you if a former smoker said, "In the 1960's, I believed smoking was harmless, but after all the studies came out showing it had a strong correlation to lung cancer, I quit."

  6. #116
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Most of the time strange and impossible ideas(such as women's equality, "child abuse", and the civil integration of the races in States) appears like "shouting nonsense to the masses from the mountain tops".
    But we're not talking about those other issues. And if you had such a strong slant on the topic of spanking, then you should present it as such right from the start, not say you are interested in an "open sharing" of ideas. It's not open sharing when you basically tell every person who disagrees with you that they are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    People often feel personally judged when something they do and believe in is questioned. I've never seen people not get offended on the topic of spanking, no matter how they presented it. It's all touchy indeed.
    Yes it is touchy, pun intended. But I am only calling you out because you sound a little too self-righteous, not because I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    EnFpFer, I respect your opinions. I understand how you're raising your kids, and I completely get and respect that. I hope you don't take this post personally, it isn't personal. I like you and your cute avatars and we generally tend to agree. I hope our disagreement here doesn't mess that up.
    I feel exactly the same way, so please don't get upset with me for trying to illuminate why some folks here are feeling "rubbed the wrong way" by the direction of this thread.

    Sending you a bazillion !

  7. #117
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    So it would bug you if a former smoker said, "In the 1960's, I believed smoking was harmless, but after all the studies came out showing it had a strong correlation to lung cancer, I quit."
    Overzealous ex-smokers are annoying too, and I've never smoked a cigarette in my entire life and I never will.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #118
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But we're not talking about those other issues. And if you had such a strong slant on the topic of spanking, then you should present it as such right from the start, not say you are interested in an "open sharing" of ideas. It's not open sharing when you basically tell every person who disagrees with you that they are wrong.

    Actually, from the beginning of the conversation, we were talking about lots of different issues. People were just saying what they thought and believed, and from the beginning, some disagreed with my original post, and some didn't. Coolness. It's become more focused on spanking because spanking was mentioned a number of times by different people.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But I am only calling you out because you sound a little too self-righteous, not because I disagree.

    Not even quite sure how to respond here, but ok.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel exactly the same way, so please don't get upset with me for trying to illuminate why some folks here are feeling "rubbed the wrong way" by the direction of this thread.
    I'm in no way shape or form upset with you, or upset in anyway actually. I assume the best of you and pretty much everyone else.


    So, to change this dead subject entirely, what are some things that you have done to prevent your little ones from doing dangerous things if you don't mind me asking? Has redirecting worked for you, or do you do something different?

  9. #119
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Overzealous ex-smokers are annoying too, and I've never smoked a cigarette in my entire life and I never will.
    Ok Ivy. Remind me not to post any threads on food toxins.

  10. #120
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The facts seem simple and clear.

    Institutional slavery was abolished for the first time in 1833.

    Women gained their emancipation in the 20th Century.

    And child abuse was prosecuted for the first time in last 20 years.

    Prior to these milestones we neither knew nor cared how slaves felt, and we neither knew nor cared how women felt, and we neither knew nor cared how children felt.

    And today we are just discovering how we felt as children.

    And rather than listen to our own pain, we blame those who are listening. And we mistakenly think it is the listeners who cause the pain.

    But it is in the listeners that we find our hope and salvation.

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