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  1. #91
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    2. But of course, Piaget was only offering up a theory. His theory cannot explain the Flynn Effect, for example. Or how a young pre-teen can ace courses in logistics, or graduate at the head of a college class of adults. I tend to side with Vygotsky, rather than Piaget, when it comes to the development of a child's cognitive abilities. If we expect that children "can't", then we will never offer up opportunities, or the level of trust, that prove otherwise.The Educational Theory of Lev Semenovich Vygotsky: an analysis
    Neither the Flynn effect nor the existence of exceptionally gifted children are contrary to Piaget's theory; improved early childhood nutrition and education provide a better foundation for later intellectual development to build upon, and exceptionally gifted kids would go through the same developmental stages as their peers, just faster, the same as some exceptional children develop physically much quicker than other children.

    I'll echo others statements that spanking can't be shown to contribute to general societal ills, and that children who are raised to be obedient to parents are not predisposed to be indiscriminantly obedient to other adults. For that matter, children that are trusting/cooperative with parents are not particularly likely to be trusting/cooperative with outsiders unless they are specifically taught and habituated to be so, which in turn is VERY reflective of adult society (research the differences between "bridging" social capital and "bonding" social capital). Finally, a child who is old enough to know what action causes a spanking will not subsequently view its mother-centric world as insecure/unjust/hostile unless the mother applies the punishment inconsistently.

  2. #92
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Neither the Flynn effect nor the existence of exceptionally gifted children are contrary to Piaget's theory; improved early childhood nutrition and education provide a better foundation for later intellectual development to build upon, and exceptionally gifted kids would go through the same developmental stages as their peers, just faster, the same as some exceptional children develop physically much quicker than other children.
    Piaget's theory suggest that at particularly ages we all go through different stages of development. It is the common way to view things, but unfortunately, it hinders the growth of many many children who do not fit the "expected" mold.
    Many revolutionaries in education began their work because they realized something was wrong with Piaget's theory. In part, this is the reason many children "don't fit in" in traditional schools.

    One of those revolutionaries was Daniel Green, who started the Sudbury Valley School. At Sudbury Valley, children from the age of 4/5-18 create the school that they want through town hall meeting. There are no "teachers". The adults are equal to the children, and the school is run by a vote, with everyone carrying one vote. Naturally, the children hold a majority. The bylaws, the budget, the judicial committee, the corporations, are all run by the children beginning at age 4. The public, and many private schools, may be convinced of Piaget, but after spending a few days in a school like this, most people will have forgotten him.

    From what I've seen, if a child is with adults who constantly explain the "whys" and the "hows" and are willing to go deeper and deeper into a subject, by the time the are 3-4ish, many are thinking critically. There are so many things that are possible in the world, and every generation we find this to be true. Critical thinking in young children - Google Books

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I'll echo others statements that spanking can't be shown to contribute to general societal ills, and that children who are raised to be obedient to parents are not predisposed to be indiscriminantly obedient to other adults. For that matter, children that are trusting/cooperative with parents are not particularly likely to be trusting/cooperative with outsiders unless they are specifically taught and habituated to be so, which in turn is VERY reflective of adult society (research the differences between "bridging" social capital and "bonding" social capital). Finally, a child who is old enough to know what action causes a spanking will not subsequently view its mother-centric world as insecure/unjust/hostile unless the mother applies the punishment inconsistently.
    The ideology/pedagogy that supports spanking can be show to contribute to societal ills. Raising obedient/spanked children(the general American pedagogy) does not produce happy, healthy, adults. Can you show me something that says that spanking and obedience produces happy, healthy, emotionally/socially competent adults? If not, what does spanking "work" to do in the long-term?

    A violation of the child usually does take trust, and I don't know too many children who are weary of other adults(besides their parents) beyond the age of 4 when most children enter pre-school. And even if they are weary of adults, they are nonetheless expected to go in and "put on a happy face". Beginning around 3, and sometimes before if the child was in daycare, they are expected to listen to and follow the rules of a number of strange adults. The mother or father may have very well just met the strange caretakers the very day the child is to attend, or perhaps a few days before; but nonetheless, the parents and the child are expected to trust this strange person to put the needs of the young child(and however many others) first. Children are taught, at a very young age, that other "adults" are to be respected, and upheld as authority figures-even if they don't know them, and even if these other adults can and do pose a very real threat to the child's existence and mental health(the adult is aware of this).

    The message seems very clear to me. The child does not need to really "know" the adults who care for him in order to be expected to obey them. The child does not need to approve of the actions of the adult in order to feel compelled(through teaching) to listen to the adult against his own desires or will. This is the entire point of Western pedagogy, to bring the will of the child in line with the dominant culture-to "socialize". That other adults are given parental pre-approval seems irrelevant to me. Most children who are killed are killed by their parents. Most children who are molested are molested by a family member or close friend. It is the case that not all parents love their children in the first place, but it is true that all children love their parents. This is all so easy to take advantage of. Obedience is convenient to the adult, but has been quite dangerous for the child.

    There is a book called "Inventing The Child" which put a lot of this into perspective for me. The book analyze culture and literature; particularly, it examines how the cultural stories we repeat over and over essentially help us to reinforce the ideas of the dominant culture(in this case, dominant pedagogy). Analysis are made of Grimm's Little Red Riding Hood, and appropriate questions are asked. Firstly, why do we repeat this story? It is a story of a young, trusting, little girl whose mother sends her into the woods with a predator(the wolf). The mother is aware that predator exist in the woods, so offers her daughter a light precaution, but no protection(the mother doesn't go into the woods herself). The child is sent off to give her grandmother a fruit basket. You know the story...The moral is that "the world out there" is a dangerous place. An alternative view is that the danger was in Little Red Riding Hood's house, and the dangerous "thing" was her mother indeed. As it was her mother who took advantage of her trust, and literally threw her out with the wolves.

    The author examines Hansel and Gretal, again children left alone to be devoured by predators. He then compares the above stories to our modern day stories, particularly stories that we all love created by Disney. Over and over the theme is: children left alone, with parents who have often been tragically murdered or killed somehow. The child is left to fend for himself, but in the end, all is well when they go off and marry a prince(or, in the case of the prince, rule the world/land). The message these stories send? The author believes it is that children are all alone in this world, left to encounter danger and death-to no fault of their parents, of course(after all, they died, or were weak, or just couldn't help). But in the end, we all turn out just fine, and so what really is the big deal with the way children are treated anyway? Most of us grow up mysteriously happy and healthy, no matter what was done to us.

  3. #93
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    A lot of those horrible stories are just to con girls into doing a bunch of sucky housework!

    I think you are minimizing the dangers of children not obeying parents. And the possibility of parents who explain the whys and hows, while teaching obedience. (My sons, for example, score very high on critical thinking compared to their peers.) There is no reason you have to talk down to or refuse to explain things kids just because you expect them to do what you ask them to do.

    Edit: Also, most of the people that kill their kids/step-kids are mentally ill and/or on drugs. I don't think obedience/trust is a huge factor in this. Even if you don't trust or obey your dad/step-dad, he can still hunt you down where you're hiding in the closet and shoot you in the head.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Locking up in your respective room punishment doesn't work. Locking up in a stale boring environment like for example bathroom or staircase does however. xD
    Funny. My INTP friend insists that this is true, also, but it never worked with me. I was in a world of my own and never minded sitting in an empty room doing nothing. I think it depends on the kid.
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  5. #95
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    My INTP husband's mother used to punish him by making him come out of his room.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #96
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    Apparently there is a new age philosophy which I thought was quite sweet... it said, "When your kids are babies treat them as Kings, when they are children treat them as princes and when they are adults treat them as friends" Obviously I didn't like the sexism but the sentiment was sweet!
    ... couldn't drag me away

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  7. #97
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    Apparently there is a new age philosophy which I thought was quite sweet... it said, "When your kids are babies treat them as Kings, when they are children treat them as princes and when they are adults treat them as friends" Obviously I didn't like the sexism but the sentiment was sweet!
    I think that's sweet too.

  8. #98
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    I still don't really see the connection of any of that (the long post above from ENFPer) to spanking.

    Spanking hasn't been shown to contribute to societal ills. No study has shown this. And it would be impossible anyway, to isolate spanking. We might as well say well most deviants/criminals drank watched X TV show or drank orange juice, and blame crime on that.

    And to agree with some other posters, I think rules - the rules of society - are things children necessarily have to learn. To boil this down completely: if you do bad shit, bad shit gonna happen to you. That is a lesson kids need to learn, to survive and function in the world. The world does not revolve around you. You must work with others and take others, as well as yourself, into account.

    Spanking, to me, is just another form of coercion (again, mentioned previously) and I don't personally think it's generally better or worse than most other forms of it. Nor do I believe children as young as 4 (!) are capable of 'handling' themselves. No way. Coercion is a part of parenting, it is the parent's JOB to stop their kids from doing things that will harm them/others - physically, emotionally etc.
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  9. #99
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Nor do I believe children as young as 4 (!) are capable of 'handling' themselves. No way. Coercion is a part of parenting, it is the parent's JOB to stop their kids from doing things that will harm them/others - physically, emotionally etc.
    I also believe it's the parents job to protect the child from harm. I just believe, as many psychologist and educators, that hitting a child is harm(rather it hurts physically, or not. Leaves a mark, or not).

    I have not see any evidence, from multiple independent studies, showing that spanking "works" to create emotionally healthy, happy, independent, adults. Where is the evidence?? I need data folks, and I don't see any. Further, just in talking to people and from my own experience, kids start figuring out ways around their parents punishments around the age that they begin. They lie, they sneak,etc...How can a parent protect their child, if they don't even know what their child is doing?

  10. #100
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    I also believe it's the parents job to protect the child from harm. I just believe, as many psychologist and educators, that hitting a child is harm(rather it hurts physically, or not. Leaves a mark, or not).

    I have not see any evidence, from multiple independent studies, showing that spanking "works" to create emotionally healthy, happy, independent, adults. Where is the evidence?? I need data folks, and I don't see any. Further, just in talking to people and from my own experience, kids start figuring out ways around their parents punishments around the age that they begin. They lie, they sneak,etc...How can a parent protect their child, if they don't even know what their child is doing?
    You're kind of painting a broad spectrum of parenting styles with a very broad brush.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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