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Thread: torture

  1. #31
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    If two sides have similar strength and resources, to not torture would be putting yourself at a disadvantage if your opponent isn't playing by the same rules.
    Well, I'm fairly certain that no one would call AQ and the US Military equal in strength and resources. And secondly, what is one of the main reasons we're fighting? I believe it was to free the afghan people from their oppressive regime. What would be one of the hallmarks of said oppressive regime? Torture! So, we should torture too! This way, all the nice civilians who know nothing about us, will get to find out that we practice the same evil behaviors as their former government AND destroy lots of shit in their country AND kill their civilians as "collateral damage". (And thanks to us missing a lot and having bad information often, this happens sometimes even when there aren't any militants around) I'm sure this is a brilliant way to win them over to our side, and they will never get mad at our mistakes.

    In short: Torturing AQ members gives our enemies a great propaganda tool that is clear to even the simplest peasant, and reduces the effectiveness of our claim that "We're better than them".
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Torture bothers me a lot. Probably a lot more than anything else. It's troubling to watch it even in movies. I don't like it.

    However, quite paradoxically, I would use torture.

    The Natives Americans used extreme methods of torture on their enemies. It may sound barbaric, but it was necessary of survival, and was apart of their culture.

    But in today's world, I don't know how it would go if I went around scalping and skinning everyone who made fun of me.

    I would torture someone if they murdered a loved one. I wouldn't care. I would want revenge. But then again, I might just pop a bullet between their eyes.

    In the movie Taken where Liam Neeson's daughter is kidnapped in Paris, he tortures suspects whom he is trying to get information out of. i.e- the guy he electricutes in the basement. If I were ever in his situation, I would have used torture for answers. I would have torn the fucking Eifel Tower over.

    So in short, if you take away something of mine, you better be damn sure I'll hunt you down and kill you. It justifies torture and murder, in my eyes.

    That's where I stand. Don't fuck with me, or I'll scalp you!
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  3. #33
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    What would be one of the hallmarks of said oppressive regime? Torture! So, we should torture too! This way, all the nice civilians who know nothing about us, will get to find out that we practice the same evil behaviors as their former government AND destroy lots of shit in their country AND kill their civilians as "collateral damage". (And thanks to us missing a lot and having bad information often, this happens sometimes even when there aren't any militants around) I'm sure this is a brilliant way to win them over to our side, and they will never get mad at our mistakes.

    In short: Torturing AQ members gives our enemies a great propaganda tool that is clear to even the simplest peasant, and reduces the effectiveness of our claim that "We're better than them".
    Exactly! We have lost the moral ground in arguing for human rights' violations in other countries because of this illegal, immoral act being used on a regular basis. And the experts agree that it DOESN"T WORK.
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  4. #34
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Speaking in general, I think there are times where it is justified.

    There are times where murder is justified, where stealing is justified, where [Insert crime here] is justified.

    These times are extremely rare, and get progressively rarer based on the level of the crime. I've never witnessed myself a situation where torture was justified outside the fiction that occurs in movies. Though, if you are my enemy, and I desperately require something of you.. I'm got going to promise I will never resort to a desperate decision to gain what I require.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    The Natives Americans used extreme methods of torture on their enemies. It may sound barbaric, but it was necessary of survival, and was apart of their culture.

    But in today's world, I don't know how it would go if I went around scalping and skinning everyone who made fun of me.
    Actually, there is very little archaeological evidence (markings on skulls) to support that scalping was a wide-spread part of their culture before the Europeans were here, and it was a well-established practice in parts of Europe much earlier in history. Both the British and French encouraged scalping for a bounty during the war with their Native American allies.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  6. #36
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    If that was so, it's kind of ironic/senseless that they employ the same methods of torture that we used/condoned.

    I think torture techniques (starting with mild forms if adequate and only escalating into more extreme measures if absolutely necessary) can be of benefit in extracting important, crucial information, and obviously it depends on the situation and the severity of it. I also believe it should be done in a controlled environment as well as professionally (as ironic as that may sound). It is our natural reaction to go into a "fight or flight" state when under duress. What happens when you're unable to flee or fight? You're left on your will to survive. A majority of people will do/say anything in order to survive. I don't believe it's civil per se, but sometimes it's a necessary means to an end, IMO. Sometimes the route to justice hovers at the same level of viciousness as the actions of the transgressor. That's just the nature of the beast...
    Brother Beat, I agree with you. I copied the passage from my paper as means for fueling the discussion here. The views of the author are not mine. If I were in charge, I would not utilize torture unless absolutely necessary. I'd put as many resources into getting good Intelligence information as timely as possible in order to curtail future risks.

    I think sodium pentathol and other means of tapping into a man's mind would very well be morel likely to yield good info as compared to fear/pain/torture. JockTheMotie is right; if those dearest to me were in harm's way, and I had "Mr. Bad Guy" and knew he had info that could spare my loved one's lives, then Mr. Bad Guy is going to make some kind of deal with me.

    I think most would agree with that thinking, but Gitmo was a bit much, it was a back alley Bush tactic that yielded little discernable fruit in comparison to the damage it has done. Right?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Actually, there is very little archaeological evidence (markings on skulls) to support that scalping was a wide-spread part of their culture before the Europeans were here, and it was a well-established practice in parts of Europe much earlier in history. Both the British and French encouraged scalping for a bounty during the war with their Native American allies.
    I am not saying it wasn't.

    And scalping doesn't always damage the skull. Often times, there are no marks upon the skull.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Actually, there is very little archaeological evidence (markings on skulls) to support that scalping was a wide-spread part of their culture before the Europeans were here, and it was a well-established practice in parts of Europe much earlier in history. Both the British and French encouraged scalping for a bounty during the war with their Native American allies.
    Go rent Clearcut (1991) and then we can talk.

    Clearcut (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Clearcut (1991) - Plot Summary

    It's about a Papermill in Canada that is cutting down Native American forest.

    A young naive lawyer comes into the scene and defends the Native Americans in a heated court case. He romanticizes the Native's way of life when he has no idea.

    One of the Natives kidnapps the owner of the paper mill and takes the young lawyer deep into the woods where he shows the lawyer how they run it tribal style. He tortures the owner of the paper mill in ways that I would prefer not to explain. It's grusome, terrifying, and will leave you with a real perspective of Native life.

    Us whites idealize them. We have no idea.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  9. #39
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadowKnows View Post
    If we could alter the law effectively it would require decisions to torture to be made by any one of say 10 top generals and executives in our government on a case by case basis with a clear signature on a memo specifying what can be done and why with copies of that order filed for future review, then it might make sense.

    The truth is that if you are someone who has abducted my child and I think you know where she is. I'm going to torture you (given the chance and access). It's going to be fundamentally wrong within our justice system but I am still going to do it. Because in my opinion the information and chance to save my child is worth it the ramifications of my actions (prison sentence etc.).

    Yet, I don't condone torture methods to be used by the state or police in the same situations. I might change my tune if it had to be someone's freedom and life on the line to make the call. The problem with government is that no one ever has their ass on the line.
    There is torture by an individual and torture by the State.

    No Common Law State has ordered torture since 1642 escept one. And not one of the perpetrators has been brought before a Common Law Court so establishing, for the first time since 1642, a precedent.

    Torture by an individual still remains a crime under the Common Law. And here we still prosecute individuals at Common Law for the crime of torture.

    However a precedent has been set for the highest officers of the Land to order torture. And this leaves the way open for the individual to claim as a defence that they were following orders.

    This defence was not accepted at Nuremberg and yet our most powerful Common Law State has brought ii in by the back door.

    This is a step back to barbarism. And does us more harm than our enemies could hope to do.

  10. #40
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    There are two responses here.

    There is the narcissistic response and there is the mature response.

    The narcissist asks what would I do in extreme circumstances? And the mature asks what is society doing?

    The narcissist only thinks of themselves while the mature thinks how this will impact society.

    The narcissist is immoral while the mature is moral.

    The narcissist has a very narrow viewpoint, while the mature looks at the whole of society.

    The narcissist thinks their own desires should rule society, while the mature thinks that society should rule the desires of the individual.

    The adult narcissist is psychologically damaged and should be referred to a psychologist, while the mature should rally to the defence of society.

    It's interesting that most of the posters here are adult narcissists. But this should be no surprise on a site devoted to the cult of the personality.

    But we should all be warned that adult narcissism leds to the defence of torture of individuals.

    Unlike conventional wisdom adult narcissism is not self love but self hatred. And this is openly expressed here in the desire for torture.

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