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  1. #71
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Ygolo> alright, admittedly I'd forgotten one of the key points that invalidates most of my argument XD

    Namely stuff like schrodenger's cat and such which kind of ruins the whole thing. Ah well, then again, even that may make perfect sense and it may be completely dictated by specific laws that we simply can't hope to grasp or understand, especially if there's extra-dimensional thinking involved... I mean even gravity the only way they can even explain why it's so bizzarely weak is because they figure part of it's energy is bleeding off into other dimensions, so it could be that the particles somehow are existing in another state entirely beyond our capability to percieve, and only actually become solid entities in the ones we can actively view once it's forced to interact with stuff on this level.

    It could be pretty messed up and complex as hell, but it may still be dictated by predictable, solid rules that we have no grasp on at all. It's just alot harder to proove that as they'd be waaaaay beyond our ability to understand.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    It could be pretty messed up and complex as hell, but it may still be dictated by predictable, solid rules that we have no grasp on at all. It's just alot harder to proove that as they'd be waaaaay beyond our ability to understand.
    Since it has been all but proven that the Universe is not locally deterministic, I think speculation on that level is truly irrelevant.

    Not because it is unknown, but instead, like you say, far beyond our understanding. So far in fact, that we can't know whether concepts of "understanding", or concepts of "laws" and "rules" apply in any way, sense or form.

    To put it simply, logic, as we know it, may not apply.

    Having said that, gravity and extra-dimensional explanations do indeed seem possible. Possible to understand, possible in effect. Because they are not necessarily the really basic stuff I am referring to. Fundamental Metaphysics and all that. The areas where no answers have been provided, where Quantum Mechanics is slowly delving into as we speak.

    Granted, where exactly the cut off point for determinism is, is unknown. Perhaps it cannot be known, and in a sense, is the cut off point.

    Whether the (non-temporal) causation chain science gives as an explanation is infinite, or has a start and/or end, is another of those questions. The causation chain being a circle has been ruled out at least, as local determinism was necessary for that.

  3. #73
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    This is kind of a hard question to answer.

    A set course of events will happen to an extent largely due to the universal law of Cause and Effect. What you did in a moment was one of infinite choices, but you were going to do that one choice. Your action was recorded in the annals of time. Everything that happens effects something else, thus, changing it. Without change there would be no time. Time is not an external force on us as a clock would have you believe. It is simply change. Life probably appears random at times because it is sometimes very difficult to understand or see the cause(s) and effect(s) of a certain occurrence. The utter complexity of it all is incomprehensible. Time would cease to exist if this law didn't exist. So life is not random on the marco-level. Everything that has ever happened is effecting what is happening now, which is effecting what happens in the future.

    To give a rudimentary example:
    I broke my arm because I fell down the stairs (you could even get into why your arm physically broke by falling down the stairs). I fell down the stairs because the floor was slippery. The floor was slippery because someone spilled water onto the floor. That person spilled water onto the floor because they were distracted by something and tipped their glass of water over, allowing water to splash onto the floor. They were distracted by that something because...etc

    However, when you get down to the quantum level of things these laws do not apply and things start to get a little wacky... You have one of the most basic and famous experiment ... this video explains it simply

    YouTube - Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment


    Quantum physics is counter-intuitive and Einstein did not like it. He was quoted as saying something to the effect of "God doesn't play dice."

    Things continue to get weirder when you get below the Planck Scale
    Planck scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    where laws applying to subatomic particles collapse...

    How do the quantum and marco-world tie together? Beneath everything there is randomness?

    To me this makes sense because in order for us to have a marco-world governed by laws and cause/effect, there must be a world of randomness and counter-intuitiveness, right?

    Interestingly, these old Hermetic axioms explain how things work quite plainly. They match up with science and spirituality. Isn't that beautiful?

    THE SEVEN HERMETIC PRINCIPLES

    Mostly what I see is the overriding principle of Duality, which is another way to say Cause/Effect, Polarity, etc

  4. #74
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Einstein also called quantum physics "freaky action at a distance". Which... is admittedly pretty accurate.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Argus's Avatar
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    Neither.



    Logical chaos, fickle fate, rational randomness. They do co-exist.

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