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  1. #31
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Random.

    I have no earthly idea how life could be a determined thing. It doesn't make sense to me realistically.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    We all have an impact on the universe. Entropy is always increasing, right? I believe, on a basic level, we are a combination of subatomic particles, little different from a rock or a tree, except in how it's all combined. Yes, ours is a little more complex in structure, but on the very basic level, we are the same. I have no explanation for how human beings came into existence. That's where the "random" vs "determined" comes in, right? Because I can't see evidence that I can choose to follow, I cannot see it as determined.

    I see existence as very volitile and able to quickly change. I see it as some random event that happened because Earth randomly formed.

    When I think of "determined", I have to think of who the determiner was... But who created the determiner? I cannot understand the concept of a higher being. There is nothing that is concrete there in that idea for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    So, trees, rocks and humans all exist, having an effect on one another. The very basic "level".

    The complex part is where the fundamental differences arise. I can reduce anything to "essentially the same" in the manner you do.

    If souls existed, they would be treated as any other particle by science.



    Bolded is where you loose me.

    There is huge evidence that the universe is determined. Really simple stuff like, gravity will exist the same tomorrow. All creating a predictable system. (QM and my other previous point aside)

    Even if there was no evidence, doesn't that put your position as it being arbitrary (not explainable, but possibly predictable), not necessarily random (unpredictable)?



    Again, I can't see what you are saying.

    It seems to me like you are using randomness and existence interchangeably here. Can you give a scenario where something exists and you don't see it as random?



    If you have to think of a determiner, it could be anything from a particle, to a human, to a god. The determiner created itself maybe? (ends the causation chain, many place this property on the universe.) There's others, like it being beyond our understanding or an infinite chain of causation, or an eternal being etc.

    Higher being, by the definition I think you are using, is a being who is the cause of the things lower than it. Some, who believe the universe to be our creator, would call it a higher being. Generally, I don't think anyone is supposed to see too much concrete in the idea, it has a lot of uses as a term.

    I'm not really sure of what you want, erm. I put my beliefs out there pretty plainly. I do not believe in predetermined. I believe in random. Just because things have followed a trend doesn't mean they will always follow that trend. I don't see the evidence to point to predetermined. Life as we know it started with us as a single celled organism. Random permutations in DNA over a very very long time led to us as we are and whatever the human race is in 100,000 years. I believe that the whole process is not predetermined. I don't believe in a master plan. I just think we are. Even our soul, our thought processes, are really just a biochemical process on a basic level, led to be what it is due to our physical state, which is created by our DNA.

    I believe that if something is determined, there has to be someone or something that makes that determination. I have not seen evidence to that determiner, as I said, so I cannot just believe. I need the evidence...

  3. #33
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    I think that all kinds of possibilities for us to experience exist, maybe in multiple dimensions or universes. But our experience of them depends on the direction we go. I'm not entirely sure what separates the you in this universe from the you in an alternate universe or whether the you you're experiencing is more real than another or whatever, but this is just the viewpoint that makes the most sense to me due to two perceptions I have: that possibilities which never end up happening (in our experience) still sometimes seem to have a strong pull on us, and that I don't believe anything not real could ever have that kind of force.

    I take it as just a more realistic, concrete point of view, and relegate its idiosyncracies to the possibilities opened up by quantum physics and string theory. I realize that there is much more to the universe than what I or anyone else can directly percieve, even if I believe I can only base my actions on those direct perceptions themselves.
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  4. #34
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    If posted in the wrong place, then apologies)

    What are your thoughts?
    Each moment is a function of the previous moment. It's not predetermined, but it's deterministic. Any alternative explanation fits less well.

  5. #35
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Who created the equations?
    People. The word "who" is already assuming too much.

  6. #36
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    I fall into the random camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The word "who" is already assuming too much.
    So would you go with a "what" or possibly a "nothing"?

  7. #37
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuulie View Post
    Life is randomly determined to be determinedly random.



    -bows-




    -----

    Yeah, I kind of see how that can be, but I am more leaning toward life being determined via the principle of universal causation, though perhaps there is still the slight chance of there being randomness via quantum mechanics. I'll have to keep an eye on those odd little particles influences....

  8. #38
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    People. The word "who" is already assuming too much.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    I'm not really sure of what you want, erm. I put my beliefs out there pretty plainly. I do not believe in predetermined. I believe in random. Just because things have followed a trend doesn't mean they will always follow that trend. I don't see the evidence to point to predetermined. Life as we know it started with us as a single celled organism. Random permutations in DNA over a very very long time led to us as we are and whatever the human race is in 100,000 years. I believe that the whole process is not predetermined. I don't believe in a master plan. I just think we are. Even our soul, our thought processes, are really just a biochemical process on a basic level, led to be what it is due to our physical state, which is created by our DNA.

    I believe that if something is determined, there has to be someone or something that makes that determination. I have not seen evidence to that determiner, as I said, so I cannot just believe. I need the evidence...
    I'll keep this short, since you don't seem to want to debate.

    Your posts, and most others in this thread, have no sensible meaning. They can be used to describe any Universe that can be conceived of, because of their vagueness and lack of definitions.

    Example of vagueness:-
    "biochemical process", "physical state" and "basic level" are just fancy terms for 'stuff that exists'. It doesn't matter whether a universe has atoms, energy etc or whether it is determined and/or random. It will still contain those three concepts in it's description.

    Example of definitions:-
    The use of random to describe DNA permutations. It is vague what you mean by that. I know they are taught in school that they are random, as in unpredictable. In the same sense a coin flip is random. Both are proven to be determined, in the sense they are actually predictable to the observer, prior to them actually happening.

    On a small side note, you've suddenly used the term "predetermined", instead of "determined", which makes things even less clear.

    EDIT: Okay, shortish

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I'll keep this short, since you don't seem to want to debate.

    Your posts, and most others in this thread, have no sensible meaning. They can be used to describe any universe that can be conceived of, because of their vagueness and lack of definitions.

    Example of vagueness:-
    "biochemical process", "physical state" and "basic level" are just fancy terms for 'stuff that exists'. It doesn't matter whether a universe has atoms, energy etc or whether it is determined and/or random. It will still contain those three concepts in it's description.

    Example of definitions:-
    The use of random to describe DNA permutations. It is vague what you mean by that. I know they are taught in school to random, as in unpredictable. In the same sense a coin flip is random. Both are thought and proven to be determined, in the sense they are actually predictable to the observer, prior to them actually happening.

    On a small side note, you've suddenly used the term "predetermined", instead of "determined", which makes things even less clear.

    EDIT: Okay, shortish
    Those aren't just fancy terms.. they are ways to define things, as used in the scientific community... I can explain what they mean, if you like, but I assume that people are capable of looking something up if it's not easily understood.

    I'm not going to spend my time writing out fifteen paragraphs to try to explain all the things that a biochemical process can be. I used the term to begin with because it's all encompassing and I would rather not go into explanation of neurons, dendrites, serotonin, etc or to explain the way that DNA and RNA behaves. It took me 4 years to get my biochemistry degree. I'd rather not spend 4 more trying to write a random post on a forum to explain little things that, if someone is interested, they can easily look up. I'm just putting my opinion out there.

    You are right.. I don't want to debate it. I'm just stating how I see the issue. You are welcome to disagree, but when you start using words like "fancy" or "vague", it rubs me a little wrong. You are implying something, without saying it outright. I'd rather you just say "I disagree and this is why" rather than attacking how I constructed what I wanted to say. That's a little nit picky to go after the way its' said rather than what is actually said. I might be more willing to debate, if that were the way it was approached.

    Oh, and it's rude to come in and say "your posts and most others have no sensible meaning". You haven't even really clearly said "this is what I think" in this thread. You've just pointed out everyone else's inconsistencies, in your opinion.

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