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  1. #21
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenomite View Post
    EDIT: An interesting concept would be if we all really did run off equations, but they were actually created by a God (as you suggested). Bit of a twist...in that case I would still say that we do not have free will.
    We wouldn't have free will, but life would still contain a lot of randomness if quantum mechanics apply to anything. I agree that free will is (unfortunately) a faith-based concept, though.

  2. #22
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    I don't really think we have 'free will' - that's probably based on the assumption that being human means we're fallible, in which case you coin a term for the reverences of being able to take responsibility, and consider action orientism, in which case being 'free'.

    ... However, again that's really (only) what we assume in our minds, and in reality, we're not particularly free willed. What we do are based more on our conscious thoughts, such as memories and do so to each other as goes with the social interaction with one another. This brings about the idea of recognition, and respect.

    Otherwise, why can't we be able to take on our lives 'really' by ourselves, instead of (often) relying on social groups, or rather experience general 'unwanted' feelings for one another that are out of our will? I would think it is all determined, and also why knowledge and understanding has a pedestal with what we do. Being fallible also just means you're not perfect, which is how we 'attribute' as for God.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Define the terms.

    They are vague, and by their usual meanings, not mutually exclusive.

    I'd assume you mean predictable vs unpredictable, but people's definitions vary a lot on these terms.
    No. By keeping the definition open. You get to choose the answer according to the way you want to interpret it.
    If i define the terms then it is somewhat determined.
    If i keep it open, then it becomes random.


    Seeming i live in a very concrete world, i love moments like this.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  4. #24
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    I see life as random. We are all just specks in this huge huge universe. I have a hard time thinking that there is some entity out there who thought up every single one of us and precisly everything we were going to do every moment of every day. I think humans like to think we are more significant than we really are.. but on a fundamental level we are animals just like every other animal on this planet. All these animals came about because of random little permutations in DNA.

  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Give me a single compelling reason to believe that a person with any given person's precise biological being and precise experiences in life should make any decisions contrary to the ones that said hypothetical person makes.

    As extra homework, give me a single reason to believe that, should "other decisions" be hypothetically possible to members of our species, why it should matter to any hypothetical member of any hypothetical species living within our universe of uni-lateral time.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #26
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I think life is determined.

    Just look at all the great minds of the past. Charles Darwin, Einstein, Freud, Nietzsche and the list goes on.
    Had these people not come to their conclusions (granted others in time would of) in the grand scheme of things, where would we be now.
    I don't think of all that as coincidence. It came at a time when it was needed.

    I am also into all this new age stuff so for example palmistry. Tell me something is right and i will try and find fault (not awkward, just looking at all possibilities). All those lines on your hand tell to an extent your life story. How can your hand tell so much?
    I got an ex team leader from work to photocopy her hand. She never spoke of her life outside work other than her hobbies. She was gob smacked that i got everything right even mentioning the rift between her and her father.

    It's also funny that i like to believe i have control over my life yet believe my life is already mapped out for me.

    I wonder how many people are looking at the lines on their hands now.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  7. #27
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    Lots of definitions flying around. People are answering entirely seperate questions. Like, some people here deny "determinism", when they merely seem to be denying a supernatural, essentially human, being is controlling everything.

    What does that have to do with determinism? The being's actions could be "random", AKA "undetermined".

    Again, it seems determinism and randomness depend on the point of view, and aren't present within the object itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    I think humans like to think we are more significant than we really are..
    Do you literally mean we are smaller/have less of an impact on the universe?

    It's just, significance seems made up by humans. For some arbitrary reason, humans assume the larger thing is more significant than the smaller thing.

    Like, adding something large to a scenario of small things, somehow makes the small things less significant? Their impact hasn't lessened, just scaled down when the human focuses on the larger (more dangerous) thing, instinctively.

    Significance seems entirely subjective to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Give me a single compelling reason to believe that a person with any given person's precise biological being and precise experiences in life should make any decisions contrary to the ones that said hypothetical person makes.

    As extra homework, give me a single reason to believe that, should "other decisions" be hypothetically possible to members of our species, why it should matter to any hypothetical member of any hypothetical species living within our universe of uni-lateral time.
    What exactly are you trying to say?

    There is a future, granted. That future will happen, granted. How does that effect your definitions of determined/undetermined, random/unrandom?

    Possibilities are an expression of ignorance. No-one, who's actually thought about it, will suggest that possibilities are anything other than a list of all scenarios we have not ruled out, when trying to decipher what will actually occur. They are simply a matter of knowledge. More precisely, predictability.

    It's a similar case with "shoulds", which share a lot with "coulds".

    EDIT: I'd add to Mycroft's post "give me a single definition of "free will", that is actually coherent". Freedom is very vague, as a physical property.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post

    Do you literally mean we are smaller/have less of an impact on the universe?

    It's just, significance seems made up by humans. For some arbitrary reason, humans assume the larger thing is more significant than the smaller thing.

    Like, adding something large to a scenario of small things, somehow makes the small things less significant? Their impact hasn't lessened, just scaled down when the human focuses on the larger (more dangerous) thing, instinctively.

    Significance seems entirely subjective to me.

    We all have an impact on the universe. Entropy is always increasing, right? I believe, on a basic level, we are a combination of subatomic particles, little different from a rock or a tree, except in how it's all combined. Yes, ours is a little more complex in structure, but on the very basic level, we are the same. I have no explanation for how human beings came into existence. That's where the "random" vs "determined" comes in, right? Because I can't see evidence that I can choose to follow, I cannot see it as determined.

    I see existence as very volitile and able to quickly change. I see it as some random event that happened because Earth randomly formed.

    When I think of "determined", I have to think of who the determiner was... But who created the determiner? I cannot understand the concept of a higher being. There is nothing that is concrete there in that idea for me.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    I believe, on a basic level, we are a combination of subatomic particles, little different from a rock or a tree, except in how it's all combined. Yes, ours is a little more complex in structure, but on the very basic level, we are the same..
    So, trees, rocks and humans all exist, having an effect on one another. The very basic "level".

    The complex part is where the fundamental differences arise. I can reduce anything to "essentially the same" in the manner you do.

    If souls existed, they would be treated as any other particle by science.

    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    I have no explanation for how human beings came into existence. That's where the "random" vs "determined" comes in, right? Because I can't see evidence that I can choose to follow, I cannot see it as determined.
    Bolded is where you loose me.

    There is huge evidence that the universe is determined. Really simple stuff like, gravity will exist the same tomorrow. All creating a predictable system. (QM and my other previous point aside)

    Even if there was no evidence, doesn't that put your position as it being arbitrary (not explainable, but possibly predictable), not necessarily random (unpredictable)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    I see existence as very volitile and able to quickly change. I see it as some random event that happened because Earth randomly formed.
    Again, I can't see what you are saying.

    It seems to me like you are using randomness and existence interchangeably here. Can you give a scenario where something exists and you don't see it as random?

    Quote Originally Posted by RuffledINTP View Post
    When I think of "determined", I have to think of who the determiner was... But who created the determiner? I cannot understand the concept of a higher being. There is nothing that is concrete there in that idea for me.
    If you have to think of a determiner, it could be anything from a particle, to a human, to a god. The determiner created itself maybe? (ends the causation chain, many place this property on the universe.) There's others, like it being beyond our understanding or an infinite chain of causation, or an eternal being etc.

    Higher being, by the definition I think you are using, is a being who is the cause of the things lower than it. Some, who believe the universe to be our creator, would call it a higher being. Generally, I don't think anyone is supposed to see too much concrete in the idea, it has a lot of uses as a term.

  10. #30
    Member Fuulie's Avatar
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    Life is randomly determined to be determinedly random.



    -bows-
    Wait, what did you say again?

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