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  1. #31
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    So we can make others into replicas of ourselves, maybe.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  2. #32
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    @onemoretime

    The effect of forming a moral absolute is to restrict the actions of others.

    However, you're right, the source of a moral absolute is always subjective, and that's the reason that these absolutes are incompatible.

    The problem of the state in lawmaking is that it requires an absolute in order to operate. The one we're operating on now is opportunism. A law is given the right to exist not according to its utilitarian (probably the most powerful moral philosophy currently) validity but according to its potential to placate and attract positive attention from masses.
    I do not seek a moral state, I seek a functional and pragmatic one. The idea of a philosopher-king, an enlightened despot, is a myth, dreamed up by Plato as a deus ex machina to impose the solutions to the very real problems of his philosophy.

    The argument against majoritarian rule is usually the one that you state, that it would descend into a tyranny of the majority. However, isn't that the point for things such as the Bill of Rights? Isn't that why most Enlightenment governments had constitutions that were restrictive, not of the power of the people, but the power of the state? Isn't that also why the concept of the social contract was developed, so as all coercive action was undertaken with the collective consent of the coerced?

    You must seek other moral absolutes if you cannot see the effectiveness of this arrangement, the idea of collegiality of all citizens, individual rights and collective responsibilities. Do I find this arrangement more moral than others? Absolutely not. Do I find it more effective? Yes.

    Now, if you want to paint me into the corner of utilitarianism being a moral absolute, feel free. However, understand that this is not coming from philosophical speculation, but pragmatic observation. The inability of many to distinguish the two is a great failing of modern philosophy, in my estimation.

  3. #33
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Divorcing an abusive spouse isn't "breaking the body of Christ, " and I find the very notion of excommunicating people decidedly UN-Christian, but that isn't the point here.

    I'm not going to argue with someone with Catholic views, or anyone else who follows a strict schedule of seemingly arbitrary yet inflexible moral absolutes.
    Annullment is available, you know... Basically that's the church saying, this marriage never existed in the eyes of God, you're free from any bond you were under. Poof. Lots of people do it. I know plenty of Catholics who have in my parish alone.

    It's quite common. No one wants to see anyone suffer in a relationship like that, especially not in a faith that prizes marriage as a loving beautiful bond mirroring that of Christ's love of humanity.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  4. #34
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I do not seek a moral state, I seek a functional and pragmatic one. The idea of a philosopher-king, an enlightened despot, is a myth, dreamed up by Plato as a deus ex machina to impose the solutions to the very real problems of his philosophy.

    The argument against majoritarian rule is usually the one that you state, that it would descend into a tyranny of the majority. However, isn't that the point for things such as the Bill of Rights? Isn't that why most Enlightenment governments had constitutions that were restrictive, not of the power of the people, but the power of the state? Isn't that also why the concept of the social contract was developed, so as all coercive action was undertaken with the collective consent of the coerced?

    You must seek other moral absolutes if you cannot see the effectiveness of this arrangement, the idea of collegiality of all citizens, individual rights and collective responsibilities. Do I find this arrangement more moral than others? Absolutely not. Do I find it more effective? Yes.

    Now, if you want to paint me into the corner of utilitarianism being a moral absolute, feel free. However, understand that this is not coming from philosophical speculation, but pragmatic observation. The inability of many to distinguish the two is a great failing of modern philosophy, in my estimation.
    I am interested to know how you gauge effectiveness and how you've determined the value of effectiveness assigned to the current political structure.

    I may have found myself a little far out in devil's advocate territory.

    My issue with the current system is on grounds of efficiency as well as illegitimacy.

    The only reason I even consider the moral validity of the state is that the state considers itself moral.
    wails from the crypt.

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