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  1. #1
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Default Two fundamental problems of education

    There are three approaches to education. (1) We should learn strictly to apply knowledge to our practical concerns. (2) We should learn for the sake of understanding the world. (3) The two strategies needs to be intermingled.

    Most students today are not concerned with knowledge. They go to college to get a job. When in class, they do not care to understand what they are learning. All they wish to receive is merely a combination of tricks that need to be mastered in order to do well on the exam. However, others, find this to be repugnant to the extreme. Some students are deeply interested in learning and have almost no use for the seemingly meaningless tricks they are forced to memorize in class.

    Consider the following example. Most mathematics students are not interested in learning the theories behind the mathematical notions. They merely wish to manipulate symbols proficiently enough to get an A on their test. However, it is to be noted that the higher the level of the mathematical discourse is, the higher the drop out rate is. Many graduate programs report a drop out rate of above 50%.

    What could be the cause of this? The answer is very simplee. The more complex the problems become, the more difficult it is to learn them by route. When this happens, a genuine understanding of the subject matter becomes a prerequisite for high results. Is this truly a problem? Most students do not make it to graduate schools and certainly are not forced to solve difficult problems in their education. Hence, they attain their diplomas having learned almost nothing. It is to be noted that when I entered Oakland University (Home - Oakland University), 20% of Freshmen were illiterate.

    My dorm neighbor averaged 20 grammatical and spelling errors per page in essays that he asked me to proofread. However, he did not drop out of college and finished his High School education with a 3.2 GPA. How did he do this? He did what the instructors asked. Or simply, he learned the tricks he was taught. What is the consequence of such people graduating with honors? Our society becomes mindless and stupidity is painful. I doubt that I need to remind anyone here about the mindlessness aspect of our society. In order to discover confirmation regarding the truthfulness of this claim, one needs to look no further than MTV.

    One may say that this is unacceptable and our educational system needs to be radically altered. People should no longer be allowed to pass classes having learned nothing. They should be forced to be creative and to think critically as opposed to merely regurgitate the incantantions bestowed upon them.

    Would this truly be desirable? If this was to happen, the drop out rate would exceed 50%. Students would learn literally nothing, as opposed to almost nothing.

    People by their nature are unreflective and impulse driven. (S) Not all Sensors are stupid, but most of them are. The very few of them who are not would survive such a program, however, most of them would regard creative and analytical thinking as simply too difficult. Even the Sensors who are not stupid are simply not motivated to use Intuition, even if they have outstanding skills using Intuition. This is precisely what it means to have a certain temperament; to be in tune with one way of functioning and to regard the contrary modus operandi as unnatural at best. Rigorous self-discipline is necessary in order to function in a way that is unnatural consistently. Most clever Sensors have neither the self-discipline nor the incentive to be reflective. In short, this amounts to the fact that it is simply useless to educate them as they will never take advantage of what they learned.

    The fact remains that these people comprise over 70% of the population. It is senseless to construct a system of education that does not accomodate them. That is the case because if we do not accomodate them the majority of the population would be even less educated than it is now. In addition to that, most educational facilities would go bankrupt. The stupid sensors (who comprise over 60% of the students) would drop out and the clever sensors would be in intense opposition to the curriculum imposed upon them.

    If we keep things the way they are a catastrophe is avoided, however, on the other hand, the very few people who are willing and able to think critically are deprived of the inspiration to do so because their school merely trains and does not educate them. The message becomes obvious; if you wish to learn, you are on your own.

    Reconciling the interests of those who see knowledge as an end in itself and those who see it as means to an end is a profound social problem. I challenge all students of education to solve it.
    Last edited by SolitaryWalker; 08-02-2009 at 04:12 AM.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #2
    your resident asshole
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    Many of those people are like that because they simply want to experience life. I don't see anything wrong in that. Knowledge is of little use to them, they just want to experience things. Going to school is an obstacle those people must overcome in order to do what they want to do (have a job and a successful life). School is not something they want to do, but they know they must. What if you had a goal you wanted to accomplish, but in order to accomplish this goal, you were put in a situation where you had to learn something that you did not want to learn? My guess is that you would do as these people would. You might cut corners in order to get past the thing you dread to get to your goal.

    I don't know how much this contributes to your point, seeing as I'm a "stupid sensor." And I do realize that your intelligence is far superior to mine, but take and interpret my comment as you wish.

  3. #3
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    I think the most fundamental problem of education is having to prove that you've learned. The only way to do this is to use concrete material.

  4. #4
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    lol @ the invective towards sensors. How is being a good soccer player any less difficult than solving a complex mathematical problem?


    (hint: it's not)
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #5
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    lol @ the invective towards sensors. How is being a good soccer player any less difficult than solving a complex mathematical problem?


    (hint: it's not)
    What a silly point. Maths requires intelligence and soccer requires physical fitness and skill. SW said sensors were stupid, not physically inept.

    But it was pretty rude of you SW!
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  6. #6
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    Are you kidding me?

    Most sensors are stupid, unreflective, unwilling to apply themselves and not dedicated enough to think critically?

    Your post is so ridiculous that it's hardly worth a reply.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  7. #7
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    i've met just as many stupid, lazy, ignorant, [insert invective here] intuitives as i have sensors (percentage wise).
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  8. #8
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I think you had people until your complaint about how knowledge is treated and taught essentially boiled down to sensor blame, however you of all people know that each temperament has a unique style of learning and valuing knowledge in general. SPs: How can education/knowledge help me do something? SJs: How can education/knowledge make me effective? NTs: How can education/knowledge help me understand something? NFs: How can education/knowledge help me make a difference? Obviously these are generalizations, but it seems the temperaments treat all knowledge this way, be it social information, school information, information gathered from experience, etc.

    If learning is only offered one way, and it is inherently geared toward SJs, you do leave others behind, but like you said, as SJs comprise a vast majority of our population it is not all together unexpected.

    Education reform is a hot topic. Do teachers even want students to have a greater say in how they learn and what they learn? Can we expect teachers to be able to appeal to each temperament's learning style and preference for information?

    However, I don't think the answer is forcing everybody to accept and give pinnacle importance to how NTs view education and information, because you just end up leaving more people behind.



  9. #9
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Just because you have a narrow definition of what is education does not mean that the majority of people are stupid and ignorant. These are YOUR concerns regarding education. If you ask employers what they want in education in order to hire people, I'm sure you'll not get only those three definitions. People also want to be employable so they will gear their education to a job/career, after all, 'higher education' is expensive.

    I feel that because tax payers' money is involved that education is political. Teachers hands are tied when it comes to the politics of education. Parents want someone to be accountable for educating their children and this is how the province will show parents they are being accounable to the future generations of workers. As well, teachers must teach a province approved cirriculum to +/- 30 children (usually more) who's learning abilities are different and who are all learning at different rates. Never mind the specical needs children in a class that require extra work on a teacher's workload because funding for specially trained helpers have been cut back.

  10. #10
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancynobullets View Post
    What a silly point. Maths requires intelligence and soccer requires physical fitness and skill. SW said sensors were stupid, not physically inept.

    But it was pretty rude of you SW!
    I said DIFFICULT, man, so your reply is silly, not my point.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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