User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 110

  1. #21
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    922

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well that's probably more to due with historical developments within the Western world(among which being atomic weapons).
    I think it was due to the enlightenment and humanist values, along with the better standards of living it enabled.

  2. #22
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    I think it was due to the enlightenment and humanist values, along with the better standards of living it enabled.
    I really wouldn't say that on numerous grounds. First off, many of the "Enlightened Despots" were war-mongers - most famously Frederick the Great. Not only that, the Enlightenment and "humanist" values actually helped usher in the age of total warfare. We especially first saw this with the levée en masse that occured during the French Revolutionary Wars. As the National Convention famously proclaimed in 1793:
    From this moment until such time as its enemies shall have been driven from the soil of the Republic, all Frenchmen are in permanent requisition for the services of the armies. The young men shall fight; the married men shall forge arms and transport provisions; the women shall make tents and clothes and shall serve in the hospitals; the children shall turn linen into lint; the old men shall betake themselves to the public squares in order to arouse the courage of the warriors and preach hatred of kings and the unity of the Republic.
    This level was mass moblization for warfare was simply unthinkable with previous systems of governance; and went into overdrive as the Industrial Revolution advanced further - culminating with World War I and World War II.

  3. #23
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Was the increase in violence after the Enlightenment and Humanism really related to those concepts, or was it more the response to pressure for resources as Europe grew in population following the establishment of resistance to the Black Death?

    Frederick the Great didn't start wars over humanism, he started wars because he wanted more stuff. Napoleon didn't get people on board with the Grande Armee initially because he reminded them of the greatness of being French; he got them on board by promising food and then beginning the propaganda assault.

    Casi bellorum are generally the same, no matter the society or time period (either resource conflict, or desire for cheap labor). Sure, the generals and princes all come up with their fancy reasons for fighting, but the infantryman only fights for one reason - stories of the past where not only did their forefathers win in glorious combat, but they got stuff afterward.

  4. #24
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    922

    Default

    I am talking about Christian violence. Violence continues to this day but appears to be mostly fanatical nationalism, which to me is no different from fanatical religious fundamentalism. The despots you refer to were not humanists. One might claim the despots of pre-Enlightenment were not really Christians, as many modern day Christians do.

  5. #25
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Was the increase in violence after the Enlightenment and Humanism really related to those concepts, or was it more the response to pressure for resources as Europe grew in population following the establishment of resistance to the Black Death?
    Yes it is related to the Enlightenment itself, due to its insistence on reason being the basis of governance. This meant that government had to have more centralized control in order to better organize and efficently run society.

    Medieval Political Theology, by contrast, was based upon the concept of original sin, ie the flawed nature of man. Thus it's a bad idea to give too much power to any one person or institution.

    That's why the power of Medieval monarchs were always constrained by the rival powerblocks of the aristocracy, the Church, communes, etc. As far military matters goes, this meant Medieval armies were largely ad-hoc formations and participated in relatively small-scale wars. There was brutality at times, especially with Mongol looting, but again it always a more haphazard affair than say Sherman's march to the sea.

    The systematic organization of resources, manpower, and killing power needed to wage a modern war simply was incompatible with the Medieval political mindset. With Enlightenment rationalism, it makes perfect sense.

    As Clausewtiz famously noted, war is the continuation of politics by other means. The nature of warfare and armies is a reflection of the kind of political mentality you're operating under - which in turn is a reflection of the kind of presuppositions you adhere to concerning ultimate matters.

  6. #26
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    The despots you refer to were not humanists. One might claim the despots of pre-Enlightenment were not really Christians, as many modern day Christians do.
    You could, but you run the risk of indulging in the "No true scotsman" fallacy.

    The Enlightened Despots often had close correspondence with many of the leading intellectual figures of the time, especially Voltaire(who actually spent time in the court of Frederick the Great).

  7. #27
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    922

    Default

    Despotism violates humanist values, democracy being one example. If I wrote a popular treatise on how wife beating was illegitimate and then turned around beat my wife, my hypocrisy would not invalidate the view that doing so is illegitimate. Many of them don't live up to their own stated values. Lenin for example, preached his undying support for the proletariat then immediately moved to undermine them as soon as he got into power.

  8. #28
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    Despotism violates humanist values, democracy being one example.
    A major premise of Enlightened Despotism is that the ruler impliments rational policies for the greater good of its citizens. As one Enlightened Despot, Emperor Joseph II of Austria, put it: "Everything for the people, nothing by the people."

  9. #29
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    922

    Default

    Elites declaring their despotism as rational does not make it rational. One could imagine an Emperor who justifies his authority as divine right this week, changing his justification next week to his authority being "rational" because popular sentiment shifted to reason. Today we call it the Age of Reason primarily because of the underlying value of using reason to understand phenomena and make decisions, not as a reflection of the minority views of cherry picked despots who interpreted reason to mean anything that favors what preserves their privilege. Politicians still to this day claim their policies are reasonable and grounded in scientific reasoning and evidence, that doesn't mean that they are.

  10. #30
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    It's those damn video games, I tell you. They show all sorts of explosions and glorify violence, and these poor saps play it and get sucked into it all and think it's cool to blow up bunches of people!!
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

Similar Threads

  1. Is Sex the Primary Motive for Islamic Terrorism?
    By Crabs in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 11-25-2015, 11:57 AM
  2. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 02-09-2015, 05:46 PM
  3. The Role of Law and the Idea of Majority Rules
    By ByMySword in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 01-29-2009, 07:01 PM
  4. Silent Victor and the Therapy Thread
    By Mole in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 12-01-2008, 10:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO