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  1. #21
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Me thinks you need to read up on the character of Medieval philosophy a little more.
    I bet you can't cite a single combination of passages that is a distinct argument in favor of the existence of the Christian God.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #22
    Sniffles
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    Perhaps Etienne Gilson's books would be a good place to start, especially The Christian Philosophy Of St Thomas Aquinas

  3. #23
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    Many of the pre-Enlightenment intellectuals were Monks or Priests, probably because they were the only ones with the time to think. Even for awhile afterward it seems. The founder of Genetics, Gregor Mendel, was a priest for example.

  4. #24
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Perhaps Etienne Gilson's books would be a good place to start, especially The Christian Philosophy Of St Thomas Aquinas
    Send quotations of arguments that purport to prove that the Christian God exists.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Send quotations of arguments that purport to prove that the Christian God exists.
    Religion B2: Aquinas's Five Proofs

  6. #26
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Make an argument for why these proofs should be read as as attempts to establish the conclusion that the Christian God exists and not the conclusion that God exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinas's Proofs 1 to 5 View Post

    1 - FIRST MOVER: Some things are in motion, anything moved is moved by another, and there can't be an infinite series of movers. So there must be a first mover (a mover that isn't itself moved by another). This is God.
    2 - FIRST CAUSE: Some things are caused, anything caused is caused by another, and there can't be an infinite series of causes. So there must be a first cause (a cause that isn't itself caused by another). This is God.

    3 - NECESSARY BEING: Every contingent being at some time fails to exist. So if everything were contingent, then at some time there would have been nothing -- and so there would be nothing now -- which is clearly false. So not everything is contingent. So there is a necessary being. This is God.

    Aquinas's Proofs 4 and 5

    4 - GREATEST BEING: Some things are greater than others. Whatever is great to any degree gets its greatness from that which is the greatest. So there is a greatest being, which is the source of all greatness. This is God.
    5 - INTELLIGENT DESIGNER: Many things in the world that lack intelligence act for an end. Whatever acts for an end must be directed by an intelligent being. So the world must have an intelligent designer. This is God.


    There is nothing in here that even alludes to the proof of the existence of the Christian God. In fact the term is not used at all.





    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes and no technically. Much of what we know from Antiquity is because of Medieval scribes helped preserved the manuscripts. Interestingly this even included the ant-Christian polemics of Julian the Apostate.
    Is there any reason to suppose that the work of these scribes is any more accurate than mere hearsay?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #27
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    All discussions out to try and prove or disprove all run down on. "Well, it's called 'believing' for a reason!" Or some other spin on 'faith'.

    It's not important to prove or disprove the existance of God. As it is futile.

    What is interesting is trying to find out why some people do believe, and why others do not.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #28
    your resident asshole
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    Methinks that guy needed a slap in the face. Or at least, I'd slap him if that was my tip.

  9. #29
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Which itself is built upon Christian values.
    Middle ages is the product of Christian values.
    Western culture is the product of the decline of the Christian values.
    It is called the New Age.

  10. #30
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Religion and church is everywhere... The message of heaven or hell is everywhere. If people want to know more and pursue a faith, there's always churches within walking distance or Bibles at any bookstore. Evangelism should start with a strong concern and compassion for others and a desire to learn more about the lives of those around you. It should be a personal thing, building bonds and friendships and then influencing "like Christ". Trying to shove a doctrine down someone's throat is such a put off and only makes religious people look cocky and bad. I have nothing but disdain towards those folks.

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