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  1. #71
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think I occasionally have had animal messengers. For example, after a bad experience in a relationship, I was pretty soured on men and depressed about male/female relationship stuff, and as I was rounding a bend in the road, my headlights shone straight on a young stag standing right at the edge of the road. He was so beautiful I caught my breath, and it softened my heart back again. It's not that unusual to see deer on that road, but I never had and never have since. So I tend to accept that as a message.

    I don't know if it qualifies as a spirit guide or what you would call it exactly, but one spirit entity I consider very much a part of me and that I always have at least one representation of where ever I go is The Green Man/Pan/The Oak King, whatever you want to call him.

    And I know this is heretical but I tend to celebrate male energy more than female. I guess just because it's "other" and I can see it better than I can see what I am. My general sense of this is that the Goddess(es) are what I am, so they can't be what I worship, if that makes sense. They are allies and I am with them, but I'm not drawn to them; I'm drawn to male gods, and specifically that one.

  2. #72
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'd never gotten into this before you mentioned it... but after you mentioned it, I got overwhelmed with an image immediately.

    There were 12 animals.

    A cat, panther, parrot, snake, jaguar, and squirrel were on my side... it was almost like they were standing by to defend me.

    On the opposite side of us, I saw a dog, pelican, dove, peregrin falcon, pig, and rat that looked like they wanted to attack us... and they seemed to be defending a shadowy figure with glowing red eyes that was obscured in darkness, pointing a spear that was pitch black (like itself) at me and laughing.

    Does this mean anything to you?
    well if you feel that it's significant then it is.
    it is hard for me to say exactly what kind of relationship the animals have to you. and by the way, my ideas are all very tied to native american beliefs (so i will talk about medicine and things like that), but i think personal interpretation is essential, and your own insights may not follow native american ideas. but here are some thoughts i have:


    the animals on your side could be protective spirits. protective spirits are fairly powerful spirits that watch over you. they are not a part of you, they are not a manifestation or representation of you, they existed before you were born.
    but they could also be your spirit guides, representations of you, an actual part of your self.
    really, only you can decide what your relationship to the animals is. do the animals on your side feel like a part of you, or do they feel seperate from you?

    as far as the aggressive animals, it seems like they are probably not a part of you. again, you have to decide if they are or not. it is possible they are shadow guides (representations of your hidden and negative qualities) but shadow guides are not generally aggressive.
    also, representations of your self (shadow guides, spirit guides) are essentially never led by a dominant spirit, and don't have a hierarchy. so the aggressive animals having a leader, or a spirit working behind the scenes, implies to me that they are outside forces, not a part of you.

    the identity of the animals gives you clues about them, so the one dark spirit with it's identity concealed is pretty significant. it could mean you are not ready to know the identity of it, or that you just don't know yet. it could be that it is concealing it's identity from you. if it is concealing it's identity, you will take it's power away from it by revealing/learning it's identity. if it's concealing it's identity; once it's identity is known to you, it will either be impotent and weak and retreat from you, or it will be powerless but become super-aggressive and essentially attack you until it wins or is defeated. i can't really help you with identifying it without more information, and honestly it will eventually be up to you to reveal it's identity, no one else can.


    here is what i can remember about the medicine's asscoiated with the animals you mentioned:

    cat: cat's medicine is emotional, it is emotionally independant and self-suficient, it may enjoy or dislike emotions of others, but it does not need them.
    panther: i don't know anything about the panther specifically. but large cats are usually associated with physical power, but not raw untamed power. they are power that is controlled, channeled, graceful physical power.
    large cats also have the medicine of the future, they step into the future confidently and fearlessly.
    parrot: i don't know specifically about the parrot. bird medicine is too varied to describe as a whole, it varies a lot from bird to bird.
    snake: snake medicine is actually considered very powerful. it is the medicine of transformation and radical change, not so much 'becoming a new person', it is more like revealing your true self that is hidden inside you. the reason snake is associated this way is because it sheds its skin, it becomes sort of refreshed and begins anew.
    jaguar: i don't know specifically. maybe similar to the panther.
    squirrel: i honestly don't know about the squirrel.

    dog: the dog is a protector and it's medicine is protection and unconditional love. so the fact that you said it is aggressive is very significant, since the dog is associated with very intense love an dedication. a dog that is a shadow would be associated with hate and extreme aggression.
    pelican: the pelican's is another animal with fairly powerful medicine, and it's one that i actually know some about, haha! it's medicine is sacrifice, sacrificing itself for others, and also loss, or more specifically the pelican's medicine is the ability to recover from a profound loss. part of the pelican's medicine is that it has the ability to essentially skirt the edge of destruction, to come so close to falling but to eventually perservere and resurface or emerge very strong.
    dove: well the dove really is associated with love and peace, gentleness and affection. but it's medicine is also that it is a very strong messenger, it is considered one of the messengers of the spirit world.
    if you are seeing a dove as aggressive that is seriously very troubling, from a native american viewpoint. the dove's medicine is so powerfully positive that to be aggressive and negative it would have to be incredibly corrupted. really, a dove being a negative spirit is extremely rare and honestly is much more ominous than a physically aggresive spirit, like a mountain lion.
    peregrin falcon: falcon's are another powerful medicine. their medicine is the medicine of the soul. they have the ability to heal the soul, and they protect and guide your soul when you die, they lead it to it's final destination. the peregrin falcon, specifically, teaches you how to develop your own rythym, how to act in your own natural rythym, which causes you to be effective and fluid and quick in your actions.
    a shadow falcon is essentially trying to damage your soul, trying to lead your soul astray. and a shadow peregrin falcon is trying to disrupt your rythym, throw you off kilter and make you clumsy and unresponsive.
    pig: my memory of the pig is that it teaches you how to focus and how to see the truth.
    rat: the rat's medicine is very defensive. it essentially makes contingency plans for everything. it plans for the worst, but rather than being bogged down by fear it goes nuts by taking every possible precaution. the key with the rat is the context of it. if it really is an emergency situation, the rat is like some kind of master-plan badass that has already taken every step and done all the preliminary work. but if everything is calm and going well, the rat is detrimental, because it is basically hoarding and being greedy.

    anyway, those are classic native american medicines. so if you are skeptical or don't feel a connection to native american beliefs, take it with a grain of salt.
    sorry for the crazy long-ass post.
    i don't know, what can i say... i am in to animal guides....

  3. #73
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ps: King, I'm so sorry about hijacking your thread. We should get back on topic with animal spirit guides.
    that's totally cool, don't worry about it!
    let the conversation go wherever it goes!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Back to spirit guides: I've read that you aren't supposed to tell other people what your totem is because it will 'take away some of the power from the relationship', does that applies just to totems, or to spirit guides, animal spirits, medicine spirits etc?

    Can anyone elaborate on why this is so? Is it just other people won't believe in these thingsa nd therefore will throw their disbelieving thoughts at you which will cause interference?"
    well, some people believe that if you reveal your spirit guides/totems to others it will dillute their power. the idea is that they are siginificant to you personally, and by keeping them entiely to yourself you form a much closer and deeper relationship with them.

    personally, i think that if your spirit guide's power is dilluted or weakened just by revealing it to other people then it was not a very powerful guide to begin with. i see spirit guides as incredibly personal, but i think people have strength in them to be able to maintain their own identity, and realize that ultimately no one else has any influence whatsoever over your spirit guide (or totem).
    although you do have to guard somewhat against other people's reactions. it is important to remember that other people's opinions and ideas about your spirit guide can lead you to a better understanding, but don't actually affect or change your guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Can people have two totems?
    i am not as familiar with totems, or at least the term totem. you can definitely have multiple spirit guides. new spirit guides can come to you later in life, at critical times in your life. it is pretty challenging to take on multiple spirit guides at once, a lot of times you will become somewhat familiar with a guide before a new reveals itself. it is also interestingto see how they are compatable, and how they overlap or are completely seperate.
    i have multiple spirit guides.

  4. #74
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think I occasionally have had animal messengers. For example, after a bad experience in a relationship, I was pretty soured on men and depressed about male/female relationship stuff, and as I was rounding a bend in the road, my headlights shone straight on a young stag standing right at the edge of the road. He was so beautiful I caught my breath, and it softened my heart back again. It's not that unusual to see deer on that road, but I never had and never have since. So I tend to accept that as a message.
    that is a perfect example of a Messenger Guide!
    animal guides don't have to be some kind of mind-blowing life-changing spiritual experience. they can be very real and very ordinary.
    the big advantage of animals as messengers is that we don't have preconceptions about animals the same way we do about people. if an animal brings a messageto you it can be a lot easier to clearly see the message, whereas when a person brings you a message it is hard to seperate the message from the person.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    So no takers on the shamanic dismemberment thing huh? It's a well-known phenomena, see Mircea Eliade's works for example. I've read about it in several other books as well, including books by practitioners [as opposed to just scholars].

    Since I'm a big fan of books [they can be so informative!], does anyone have any books or authors relating to this topic they'd like to mention? I like Michael Harner and his people, Sandra Ingerman, Tom Cowan, I've read some of the celtic stuff, Joh and Caitlin Matthews are famous names there, Philip Carr-Gomm, Geo Trevarthan's website seems to have a lot of power. Ted Andrews is well-known, Animal Speak in particular comes to mind. I've read a few wiccan books [starhawk, Scott Cunningham?, others], but that's not my thing. Llewellyn books don't personally impress me too much, but they are not my thing either.

  6. #76
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    So no takers on the shamanic dismemberment thing huh? It's a well-known phenomena, see Mircea Eliade's works for example. I've read about it in several other books as well, including books by practitioners [as opposed to just scholars].
    it seems like shamanic dismemberment is pretty heavy stuff, if you are taking it seriously. i honestly don't have any experience or much knowledge of it.
    my understanding is that it is an incredibly disturbing experience, positive and negative, and that it is not something that you go through with just for the positive effects/results. i have heard that it is a serious mindfuck, that people come out of it not really knowing whether it was extremely insightful and revealing, or horribly scarring and traumatic, or just both.

    and i don't really have any books to recommend. my knowledge of this stuff is all learned firsthand, from my family and our community.

  7. #77
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Lemme see what I can do to add onto that. I have Ted Andrews' book here


    cat: cat's medicine is emotional, it is emotionally independant and self-suficient, it may enjoy or dislike emotions of others, but it does not need them.

    Fi anyone? Would explain NFPs love for this animal. Btw, didn't know this one, tnx. According to Ted Andrews, Cat is also associated with magic, mystery and independence

    panther: i don't know anything about the panther specifically. but large cats are usually associated with physical power, but not raw untamed power. they are power that is controlled, channeled, graceful physical power.
    large cats also have the medicine of the future, they step into the future confidently and fearlessly.

    Also reclaiming one's true power, pursuing your goals in silence, surprising others

    parrot: i don't know specifically about the parrot. bird medicine is too varied to describe as a whole, it varies a lot from bird to bird.

    sense of diplomacy, study of colors and their effects

    snake: snake medicine is actually considered very powerful. it is the medicine of transformation and radical change, not so much 'becoming a new person', it is more like revealing your true self that is hidden inside you. the reason snake is associated this way is because it sheds its skin, it becomes sort of refreshed and begins anew.

    Rebirth, resurrection, initiation and wisdom

    jaguar: i don't know specifically. maybe similar to the panther.

    "The Jaguar variety of the panter will also stalk but they are more powerfull. They instinctively know how best to attack and they have to learn to temper their responses or they may otherwise unintentionally wound others more deeply than they mean to

    squirrel: i honestly don't know about the squirrel.

    activity and preparedness (known for being sociable, bursting with energy and gathering food for the winter)

    dog: the dog is a protector and it's medicine is protection and unconditional love. so the fact that you said it is aggressive is very significant, since the dog is associated with very intense love an dedication. a dog that is a shadow would be associated with hate and extreme aggression.

    faithfullness and protection

    pelican: the pelican's is another animal with fairly powerful medicine, and it's one that i actually know some about, haha! it's medicine is sacrifice, sacrificing itself for others, and also loss, or more specifically the pelican's medicine is the ability to recover from a profound loss. part of the pelican's medicine is that it has the ability to essentially skirt the edge of destruction, to come so close to falling but to eventually perservere and resurface or emerge very strong.

    renewed buoyancy and unselfishness

    dove: well the dove really is associated with love and peace, gentleness and affection. but it's medicine is also that it is a very strong messenger, it is considered one of the messengers of the spirit world.
    if you are seeing a dove as aggressive that is seriously very troubling, from a native american viewpoint. the dove's medicine is so powerfully positive that to be aggressive and negative it would have to be incredibly corrupted. really, a dove being a negative spirit is extremely rare and honestly is much more ominous than a physically aggresive spirit, like a mountain lion.

    feminine energies of peace, maternity and prophecy

    peregrin falcon: falcon's are another powerful medicine. their medicine is the medicine of the soul. they have the ability to heal the soul, and they protect and guide your soul when you die, they lead it to it's final destination. the peregrin falcon, specifically, teaches you how to develop your own rythym, how to act in your own natural rythym, which causes you to be effective and fluid and quick in your actions.
    a shadow falcon is essentially trying to damage your soul, trying to lead your soul astray. and a shadow peregrin falcon is trying to disrupt your rythym, throw you off kilter and make you clumsy and unresponsive.

    Kestrel entry: mental speed, agility and grace

    pig: my memory of the pig is that it teaches you how to focus and how to see the truth.

    no entry, sorry, however in Norse Lore, the Pig stands for prosperity, strength and ferociousness

    rat: the rat's medicine is very defensive. it essentially makes contingency plans for everything. it plans for the worst, but rather than being bogged down by fear it goes nuts by taking every possible precaution. the key with the rat is the context of it. if it really is an emergency situation, the rat is like some kind of master-plan badass that has already taken every step and done all the preliminary work. but if everything is calm and going well, the rat is detrimental, because it is basically hoarding and being greedy.

    success, restlessness and shrewdness





    Gotto say, Kingfisher, you know your stuff!

    Oh and btw, here's a little treat for everyone:


    Kingfisher:New warmth, sunshine, prosperity and love,

    * symbol of peace and prosperity
    * promise of abundance, of new warmth, of prosperity and love

    Parents with this totem have a knack for teaching their children how to enjoy life but also how to prosper at life as well.

    Often it requires you dive headlong into some activity b ut it usually proves to be very beneficial.

    Anything you want to tell us, Kingfisher?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #78
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Amargith, thanks for the extra info! i did not know a lot of that, about the panther and jaguar and others. what is the name of the Ted Andrew's book you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Anything you want to tell us, Kingfisher?
    haha! yeah, i am pretty transparent, what can i say?
    the kingfisher is my spirit guide, it is pretty important to me. the kingfisher came to me when i was at somewhat of a crisis in my life. i see it as part of my true nature, or guiding me towards my true nature, sort of leading me out of my old life and into the person i know i am and can become.

    everything you said about the kingfisher is totally accurate!! kingfisher has the medicine of warmth and security, it sort of radiates loving warmth.
    here are a few other things about the kingfisher:

    the kingfisher dives into the unknown without fear. it is bold, and it follows it's path even when it gets deep into unknown and uncharted territory.
    it is one of a few animals who have a specific kind of emotional independance medicine, the best way i can describe it is that kingfishers glide through turbulent emotion without being affected by it.

    part of the kingfisher's medicine is communication, communicating clearly and concisely, brief but to the point. but another part of the kingfisher is being aware of the damaging nature of your words, so for us with kingfisher medicine we have to be extra aware of how our words can cut down other people.

    kingfisher is also associated with physical strength. not in the way that bear or moutan lion or other animals are physical creatures. kingfisher's strength is in toning himself, actively maintaining his physical strength.
    kingfisher is also associated with ego, having an over-developed ego. it is more intricate than that, i am not sure exactly how to explain it, but it is kind of like the kingfisher overdeveloped a spiritual ego in its past lives, it turned spiritual matters into a personal egotistical thing and now in it's present life the kingfisher must be aware and guard against becoming spirtually egotistical.

  9. #79
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher View Post
    Amargith, thanks for the extra info! i did not know a lot of that, about the panther and jaguar and others. what is the name of the Ted Andrew's book you have?



    haha! yeah, i am pretty transparent, what can i say?
    the kingfisher is my spirit guide, it is pretty important to me. the kingfisher came to me when i was at somewhat of a crisis in my life. i see it as part of my true nature, or guiding me towards my true nature, sort of leading me out of my old life and into the person i know i am and can become.

    everything you said about the kingfisher is totally accurate!! kingfisher has the medicine of warmth and security, it sort of radiates loving warmth.
    here are a few other things about the kingfisher:

    the kingfisher dives into the unknown without fear. it is bold, and it follows it's path even when it gets deep into unknown and uncharted territory.
    it is one of a few animals who have a specific kind of emotional independance medicine, the best way i can describe it is that kingfishers glide through turbulent emotion without being affected by it.

    part of the kingfisher's medicine is communication, communicating clearly and concisely, brief but to the point. but another part of the kingfisher is being aware of the damaging nature of your words, so for us with kingfisher medicine we have to be extra aware of how our words can cut down other people.

    kingfisher is also associated with physical strength. not in the way that bear or moutan lion or other animals are physical creatures. kingfisher's strength is in toning himself, actively maintaining his physical strength.
    kingfisher is also associated with ego, having an over-developed ego. it is more intricate than that, i am not sure exactly how to explain it, but it is kind of like the kingfisher overdeveloped a spiritual ego in its past lives, it turned spiritual matters into a personal egotistical thing and now in it's present life the kingfisher must be aware and guard against becoming spirtually egotistical.
    It's Animal Speak. It's one of the best animal dictionaries, from what I hear. It also has some info on shapeshifting and other lessons you can learn from animals. He has a second one too, forget the title now, as I still don't have it. It's decent enough, but it's a dictionary mostly. I still am looking for a good book that goes in dept as to the actual practices that you can do with this info.

    Btw, the reason that you didn't know Pig, is, if I remember correctly, that Pig isn't a native american animal. I didn't think of that before, but it's a european animal, hence it does show in Norse and Celtic shamanism. It could be that the modern native american tradition has incorporated it, but it is likely not to be a part of the original tradition.

    As for the Kingfisher, that's quite a powerful and original spirit guide you have there. The lessons it brings are good things to be aware of.
    As I said, I'm glad you added info onto the cat spirit guide, as that one (how unoriginal, I know ), is mine.

    Btw, how is it that you came to this path? (if this is too personal, lemme know )
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #80
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I am an eclectic pagan. Primarily I am just spiritual and want to attain enlightenment. I have my own Ti + Fi type spiritual framework for looking at the world, and it consists of objective truths and subjective connections. The principles consist of Taoism, Hinduism, some Buddhism, and indigenous tribal beliefs. I strongly connect to Native American paths and parts of Celtic and Norse spirituality, primarily the shamanism. Although I'm technically Wiccan because I am (almost) a priestess, I don't consider myself religious. I believe in deities primarily in the Eastern way, that they are collections of energy condensed into thought forms. I don't believe they exist independently of our perception, although we can interact with them. I have a strong connection with several. (Hint: see my avatar.)

    I feel one with the spirit of life that runs through all living things, and a strong connection to all living beings. If I had a "superpower" it would be to shape shift into any animal. I believe one can connect with any animal's spirit and incorporate its positive attributes. It is good to be respectful of the collective animal spirit though, like the Wolf/Cat/Coyote Nation or whatever, and not just use spirit energy selfishly and for ego purposes.

    I identify with several animals (as power animals I guess): rabbit, cat, coyote, hawk, butterfly and moth, are a few. I also identify with my Chinese zodiac animal, the rat. I believe the pet rabbit I had as a child was a familiar. She looked like a cottontail.

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