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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think the words "masculine" and "feminine" have been distorted so badly by western culture that it's hard to discuss them at this point without all that social baggage being brought into it.

    I understand what the OP is saying with the assessment. People just have a hard time agreeing on what 'masculine/feminine' means from any sort of quantifiable view. The problem is a high degree of variability within males and within females, which makes us wonder from what the two terms are derived.. if there are lots of females who can be "masculine" and lots of males who can be "feminine," then the two terms seem more to be arbitrary ideals and not derived from the gender in question.

    In general, at best, I can extrapolate from the biological imperative, where the bell curve of females possess nurturing streaks to some degree more than males do, and males use overt power (i.e., thwarting or overriding others) on the bell curve more than females do, much as two bucks (rather than two does) butt heads in mating season. These patterns are established biologically.

    The movie that comes to mind is Disney's "Beauty and the Beast" -- Belle is very INFJ in personality... she comes across as very feminine in appearance and social manner and how she expresses her personhood (and is a nurturer at heart) but she's steel as well, fearless and able to thwart challenges head on as a male would... except she can be physically overpowered. To me this is the blend being discussed here.

    (Meanwhile in Beast and Gaston, you see the masculine imperative expressing itself, except Gaston's is untempered by any sensitivity, whereas Beast has a "feminine" side except that... rather than nurturing per se as a female is prone to fall into... he becomes protective and spends in his energy in conflict for the good of others. Note: I don't see Beast as ENTP, he's probably some sort of SP.... interestingly the sort of guy I have seen many INFJ women friends end up involved with. I wonder if there's a particular dynamic in play there that works well.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post
    Hello,
    From what I gather my father and brothers are all NF and I always thought they were the most masculine of men. [...] They never wanted to marry me, which I understand.

    I understand your relatives' sentiment towards you as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Very true Syn and San. I had to put "female entp" in my bio because I had so many chicks pm'ing me romantically.
    Donita Juan!
    I echo other posters' thoughts that it may be a very 'online' effect. I.e., I am quite often confused for a dude (may be my avatars, but, in the beginning, when I had no avatar). It's amusing, and I haven't quite figured out what parts of my postings trigger that assumption. I probably do come off as assertive, and, it irks me that I have to double-triple think about putting a stupid smiley at the end of a sarcastic comment...just in case. So, sometimes I don't. Which doesn't smooth online communication, I'm sure. Meh.

    But, the thing is, IRL, I am quite feminine. A lot of people comment that my mannerisms, inflection of speech, etc, are very reminiscent of my mother (who's a very gentle INFP-type). I am told often to repeat what I said because my speech is very soft. And, I get approached but dumbass dudes who I think, gets the vibe that I'm a poor innocent female, i.e., easy pickings. Until....I open my mouth, and you hear the content of it, and then, their friends are hurrying them up, "Dude, let's just go, let's leave..."
    My INxJ bf summed it up best, I think, "You act like a girl, but, think like a guy!"*

    * which inevitably ended with a debate on what exactly is 'thinking like a guy'

  3. #33
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Some people are taking a good joke too seriously. :P
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  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    ...My INxJ bf summed it up best, I think, "You act like a girl, but, think like a guy!"*

    * which inevitably ended with a debate on what exactly is 'thinking like a guy'
    Aw geez, here we go. *groan*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Aw geez, here we go. *groan*
    ^ Ladies and germs, clear example of girly-girl think.

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Hey!

    Okay, let me take the "prim and proper" organizational maven approach: It might make a good thread, I don't want to mess this one up unless the OP approves / can tie it in.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Hmmm...am interesting thought. I'm guessing that INFP women in line with this train of thought are also considered "traditionally" female.
    What comes to mind however are famous figures such as Joan of Arc...and role models I have in my own personal life, who are not so "traditionally" female. One of which persued her scientific career while her husband stayed at home at raised the kids.

    I personally don't think I'm truly "feminine" in societies sense of the word, although I do have feminine outlook I would guess.
    It's amusing especially as I'm not particularly attached to the whole gender thing mentally (psyichally, is a different story).
    I have to say though, I'm attracted strongly, to deeply masculine men, although that wasn't always true.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #38
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I understand what the OP is saying with the assessment. People just have a hard time agreeing on what 'masculine/feminine' means from any sort of quantifiable view. The problem is a high degree of variability within males and within females, which makes us wonder from what the two terms are derived.. if there are lots of females who can be "masculine" and lots of males who can be "feminine," then the two terms seem more to be arbitrary ideals and not derived from the gender in question.
    Maybe hard to quantify, but not so hard to describe.


    The movie that comes to mind is Disney's "Beauty and the Beast" -- Belle is very INFJ in personality... she comes across as very feminine in appearance and social manner and how she expresses her personhood (and is a nurturer at heart) but she's steel as well, fearless and able to thwart challenges head on as a male would... except she can be physically overpowered. To me this is the blend being discussed here.
    Yes! You understand completely. This pleases me immensely.

    (Meanwhile in Beast and Gaston, you see the masculine imperative expressing itself, except Gaston's is untempered by any sensitivity, whereas Beast has a "feminine" side except that... rather than nurturing per se as a female is prone to fall into... he becomes protective and spends in his energy in conflict for the good of others. Note: I don't see Beast as ENTP, he's probably some sort of SP.... interestingly the sort of guy I have seen many INFJ women friends end up involved with. I wonder if there's a particular dynamic in play there that works well.)
    Yes, this is what I am getting at and why I think ENTP male / INFJ female is a good match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hey!

    Okay, let me take the "prim and proper" organizational maven approach: It might make a good thread, I don't want to mess this one up unless the OP approves / can tie it in.
    Go for it. You are very insightful.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #39
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    can tie it in.
    Did someone call for an ENTP?

    Well, as energies are the only tangible manifestations of our interactions with the world, and, thinking is a crux of most interactions (Sarah Palin, aside..we're not dealing with exceptions), AND, it's an energy-driven act: thinking...it means that we can evaluate energy manifested by thinking, and whether our receipients' energies (thought) translate that as stereotypical masculine or feminine.

    For example, whenever compassion is manifested in thought, most might assume that to have a feminine bent. While, when blatant agressiveness is manifested in thought (or fist), most might assume that to have a masculine bent.

    The only issue is, they're not clearly deposited into two separate boxes, but, rather, lie along the spectrum on which we can freely move, backwards and forwards. Thus, none of us are really tied to a location/spot as much as we are tied to the interpretation of each individual thought/action/manifestation of energy....which, when averaged may put certain individuals closer to the 'masculine' end of the spectrum and others closer to the 'feminine' end of the spectrum.

    The eunuch marks the spot.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think the words "masculine" and "feminine" have been distorted so badly by western culture that it's hard to discuss them at this point without all that social baggage being brought into it.
    It's this backlash in modern western culture towards labelling theory (and all its negative connotations as inverse to individuality and autonomy).

    if there are lots of females who can be "masculine" and lots of males who can be "feminine," then the two terms seem more to be arbitrary ideals and not derived from the gender in question.
    Question, psycho-socio-culturally speaking, what is most relevant to us in Western socieities? Sex or gender?

    These patterns are established biologically.
    IA, biologically (physiologically) speaking, sex is relevant, not gender...gender is a default manifestation for certain social animals, like humans.

    The movie that comes to mind is Disney's "Beauty and the Beast" -- Belle is very INFJ in personality... she comes across as very feminine in appearance and social manner and how she expresses her personhood (and is a nurturer at heart) but she's steel as well, fearless and able to thwart challenges head on as a male would... except she can be physically overpowered. To me this is the blend being discussed here.

    (Meanwhile in Beast and Gaston, you see the masculine imperative expressing itself, except Gaston's is untempered by any sensitivity, whereas Beast has a "feminine" side except that... rather than nurturing per se as a female is prone to fall into... he becomes protective and spends in his energy in conflict for the good of others. Note: I don't see Beast as ENTP, he's probably some sort of SP.... interestingly the sort of guy I have seen many INFJ women friends end up involved with. I wonder if there's a particular dynamic in play there that works well.)
    Your Disney reference just reminded me....my friend did a fascinating research looking at the phenomenon of heterosexual mainstream porn geared towards men and porn geared towards women (yes, folks, this does exist but a very small market). She watched a hella lot of hours of porn (I helped )...and one fascinating trend she saw was, as best as I can sum it up: complexity/nuance versus linear, what-you-see-is-what-you-get dichotomony. Former in female-geared porn, latter in male-geared porn. There's a build-up of romance, of seduction, and the visuals were more symbolic (more panned-out shot of the couple in copulation), the men are strong types with a suprising (under-the-blatant-surface) gentleness that's in the female-geared porn. While for male-geared porn, there's some ridiculously short attempt at a story line before you get zoomed-in shots of parts (the personhood cut up into pieces...her boobs, her ass, her...) and the women are looking up at the men to 'fulfill the need'/dependency.

    Why porn? Because it taps into one of our primal basic inclinations - sexuality. And, obviously we assume that both markets are answering to their consumers' wants & needs...hence such differences in manifestations. From this we can maybe understand and agree, that there are differences in what feminity desires as opposed to what masculinity desires. It's thus not just a negligible social construct, these terms, masculinity, femininity. I am a woman, this is my ideal sexual fantasy. I am a man, this is my ideal sexual fantasy.

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