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  1. #31
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Go away Descartes!
    The name is Journey. You can say, "Go away, Journey!" and be correct in your reference, but I will not go away. What I said was a personal observation of Truth, not something I read from some philosopher somewhere. And I stand by what I said as it being God's own Truth.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  2. #32
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Is Perception and Reality dependent upon time? God is often thought to be outside of time, and that there was no time before the act of creation.

    As in my response to Kai, absolute time is not the only way to conceive of time. Time could be conceived as a relational property that holds between, and is dependent upon, changing objects, (just as something's being colored is dependent upon its being extended). Time could be similar to the property 'x is to the left of y'. It is not said that 'to-the-left-of-ness' exists independently; it obtains only when there are two objects, and when one of those objects is, indeed, to the left of the other; in a world with only one object, nothing is 'to-the-left-of'; similarly, in a world without change, there are no temporal relations; nothing is before or after, earlier or later; and to say a world is without temporal relations is to say that world is without time.

    Imagine a world with an eternal, changeless rock, just hovering in space. Any 'timeline' you made for this rock would be superfluous; every point on the line would be identical to every other point in every way, and by adding to any statement about the rock that it was at such and such a point of time would add no new information about the rock, or the world the rock was in. You'd be using language, but you'd be talking about nothing. (<--and I think this plays in nicely to what you say below about language and information.)
    .
    Good point, you will still sense time even if the world is a lifeless clock, but you do not know how much time has paseed and changed.

    COuld it be true that there is no time when only one object exists in the universe? then again, is there such a thing as a colorless color?

    I don't know if this is related to what you said, but these are the intangible properties we use to define reality:

    time
    information
    energy

    Tangible properties:

    light
    touch

    Inagine a reality without either 1 or these 5 properties, what will reality be like?


    You can say reality and time is defined by subjective experience, but a reality without any of these 5 properties would be unthinkable.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  3. #33
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Either God does as the maker of all that is real or you begin to believe lies like man does which leaves you open to the belief that there are no absolute truths.
    There may well be absolute truths but as contingent beings we can't know them.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    A fundamental in science that's the general public is largely ignorant about. It's always about hypothesis testing. Theories aren't necessarily "truths". We attempt to describe objective reality through our subjective filters. If we get it right, good for us. If we get it wrong, *shrugs* either it comes out later or we'll be none the wiser.
    Hence, they are not certain. But science does make truth claims about probabilities of a theory being true, specifically which theory is more likely to be so than another. Not that they are quantified too much, but it certainly seems descriptive of reality to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I guess you can say the difference between objective and subjective reality is only an philosophical exercise. The only truth that matters practically is what you know. Short of a time machine or foresight into the future, subjective perception doesn't impair decision making. And really that's all that matters.
    A time machine and foresight into the future would all fit into subjective perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    The name is Journey. You can say, "Go away, Journey!" and be correct in your reference, but I will not go away. What I said was a personal observation of Truth, not something I read from some philosopher somewhere. And I stand by what I said as it being God's own Truth.
    I wasn't talking to you silly! I was telling Descartes to go away, he's been pestering me a lot lately.

  5. #35
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    to the OP: Discourse on the Method, by René Descartes. Thats the most basic way I can think to define reality, though it ignores your sensibile/insensible original question.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

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