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Thread: Original Sin

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    Default Original Sin

    Original sin, according to Christian theology, is humanity's natural state of sin. After the Fall of Man, when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, all of his ancestors bear the consequence. It is a belief that evil is a fundamental underpinning of the human psyche, which is to say that the one thing that separates man from any other mass of molecules, his mind, is tainted, so his entire existence is abominable. If Original Sin is abandoned, so is the necessity of a savior. There is no savior for a man who is not damned.

    I can say with certainty, though I base this claim on no fact, that the majority of Christians have been so since their birth. A child has no concept of what is and is not real, so he may be deluded at a young age, his reason marred, and suffer a deformed existence of the most hideous kind without pain. For the blind, the inability to see their own dead, milky cataracts is a boon. Those with sight shudder at the lurid sight of the worn, decayed eyes, and pity that they are not being used, though the blind do not ask this of them. Everyone in the room considers the blind man's disability as he stumbles helplessly, but he is so used to his own mode of perception that his own blindness is far from his mind.

    A man born blind does not understand his deficiency as clearly as a man who has poked out his own eyes, because the latter always knows that there is another world, one of color in fact, that he was a part of once, that he has left. He made the choice to deny the sensual reality that he was once a part of, opting instead to pay attention to and place importance on the visions in his mind. He has not altered reality, only his perception of it. Such is the case of the born-again Christian, refusing to partake in the sensuality he once enjoyed, declaring it evil, and focusing instead on the visions of his mind, declaring them real.

    The man who has been a Christian since childhood's reality has been so fractured that I would not expect him to be able to piece it back together. He earns my pity, and even some of my forgiveness. The born-again Christian is another matter. He has accepted the words of others, believing that they are capable of some sort of understanding or higher reason of which he is deprived. Accepting Original Sin with the rest of the doctrine, he is dunked underwater. He intentionally drowns the only part of him that is real: the belief that his own conclusions are valid, the belief that he is worth more than the sum of his molecular parts. He renounces his self. He proclaims that he is not. He forfeits. His autonomy chokes and gasps for air as he surrenders both his right to think and his right to feel, and he arises from the water a collection of muscles, veins, blood, organs, and nothing more, by choice. His suicide has occured, and the physical death that eventually follows is not half as tragic.

    Who was this 'Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil' created for? Was it created on the off-chance that a giraffe, tall enough to reach its ripe fruit, may obtain this knowledge? Is there a chance that Adam and Eve would have ignored this Tree, in favor of the fruit on the many other trees in the garden, if god had abstained from indicating this particular Tree? And if man, with his innate curiousity, had not yet fallen, then can he be blamed for the decision he made to eat from it? The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a trap. Now, we are all found guilty by association, by sharing the same species as the two beings whose trespasses were the result of a premeditated sting. We are guilty for the crime of having a body. Guilty for breathing, guilty for thinking. We have been found guilty without having had the option to take the opposite action, to renounce our body, to deny life, to die!
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    The mistake here is taking the Bible literally rather than symbolically, figuratively, and/or metaphorically. The giraffe bit is ludicrous for someone who is making a sincere attempt to intelligently understand the Christian Bible.

    People are pretty nasty. It can't be denied. There's something rotten in human nature, and I don't think it's all that insane to try to overcome it with love, charity, forgiveness, peace, and thankfulness.

    How come people always attack Christianity - and not, say, Hinudism, Buddhism, or Wicca?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    1. The mistake here is taking the Bible literally rather than symbolically, figuratively, and/or metaphorically. 2. The giraffe bit is ludicrous for someone who is making a sincere attempt to intelligently understand the Christian Bible.

    3. People are pretty nasty. It can't be denied. There's something rotten in human nature, and I don't think it's all that insane to try to overcome it with love, charity, forgiveness, peace, and thankfulness.

    4. How come people always attack Christianity - and not, say, Hinudism, Buddhism, or Wicca?
    1. Obviously, I do not take the bible literally. There are some people who do, and I agree that this is fallacious.

    2. The 'Giraffe Bit' was to illustrate the absurdity of taking a story like this literally. This post was not a "sincere attempt to intelligently understand the Christian Bible," because the Bible is not the problem. Delusion is the problem.

    3. I deny it. And what stands for 'morality' today is my case. Morality has been twisted, because it is our very nature that has been denied. Sex becomes filthy and pride opposes humility. The truth is that human nature means instincts for human survival. That is all! In this objective light, we must understand that procreation and ambition are the greatest goods. Sex is no more evil than drinking water, and pride is not the opposite of humility, it's the opposite of shame. The highest place a man can be is on the top of a mountain, chest heaving and blood pumping from his recent climb, but Christianity would have us believe that the highest place a man can be is on his knees! Weak and meek, he kisses the toes of his enemies, and never stops to ask why rewarding and evil force is morality. He never stops to ask why he should give his money, honor, and respect to others, letting others have it as if they are somehow more holy than he. Because if one spends his own money he's greedy, if one honors his self, he is prideful and wicked. So, the chain begins and ends. Every man is guilty and belongs on his knees. Every man should be lower than all other men - to each man, the rest of humanity should be regarded as above him. He is the lowest person on earth. And so morality is sick, coughing up blood everytime a good person turns the other cheek to an enemy, denying that the destruction of evil is a virtue, and refusing to acknowledge that to entertain it is to encourage it.
    No, men are not evil. They only fail to uphold a morality which is antithetical to nature. So to say men are inherently evil is to say nature is evil. But nature is all there is - any evaluation of it is purely imaginary.

    4. I attack Christianity because Christianity attacked me. I rarely come face to face with members of those other religions, and with the exception of Buddhism, I haven't studied them. I may not agree with Buddhism, but I don't think it's harmful.
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    The story of Original Sin is about the birth of the intellectual soul of mankind. Original sin pertains to ALL beings who achieve that form of soul, because they are cursed in knowledge - they now know about Sin. If you are not aware of Sin, you can not be guilty of it.

    To say which caused which will give you a chicken/egg thing. They come in one package

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    4. I attack Christianity because Christianity attacked me. I rarely come face to face with members of those other religions, and with the exception of Buddhism, I haven't studied them. I may not agree with Buddhism, but I don't think it's harmful.
    So this is a personal, not an intellectual, issue.

    Christianity doesn't "attack" people in all forms. You may have experienced a certain type of Christianity that was harmful, but that doesn't mean that all Christians or churches are like what you experienced.

    If we were to address this issue logically, we could very well say that Islam is harmful if we're using your rubric for Christianity. But Islam isn't inherently any more harmful than Christianity. It's human nature that's harmful, and it puzzles me why people have the inability to see that.

    You don't think that Buddhism is harmful, but my mother would disagree.

    As for Wicca, I think that rational people everywhere see it as harmful because it promotes what they call "magical thinking." I'm not saying that I agree with them, but I am annoyed by the presumption that Christianity is somehow inherently harmful, or the "worst" of the religions.

    You see, people can harm each other with dogma every day. That dogma could take the form of soviet communism which is inherently atheist, or just white supremicist dogma, which isn't necessarily associated with any particular religion. People are hateful. They hurt each other. Any philosophy can be twisted to serve the purpose of someone with selfish or misguided intentions.

    Most rational, non-religious people attempt to change their natures in order to fit into society. The modern world is a testament to abhorring the natural state of things. Morality isn't the only ethical framework that tells us our nature needs to be changed. Besides, who really wants to be running around like the Vikings, anyway? I sure don't.

    Even if you aren't a spiritual person, religion was a very useful form of teaching people to not act like violent, depraved animals. Today, instead, we have laws and PC ethics.

    Blindly fighting against Christianity, or any particular religion, is failing to see the big picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    1. So this is a personal, not an intellectual, issue.

    2. Christianity doesn't "attack" people in all forms. You may have experienced a certain type of Christianity that was harmful, but that doesn't mean that all Christians or churches are like what you experienced.

    3. You don't think that Buddhism is harmful, but my mother would disagree.

    4. I'm not saying that I agree with them, but I am annoyed by the presumption that Christianity is somehow inherently harmful, or the "worst" of the religions.
    1. The issue can't be intellectual because I have feelings about it?

    2. This is kind of beside the point, but the indoctrination I received as a child is the attack that I am talking about. I can never undo the damage that was done. I wish more than anything that I could die and be born again in a rational household who values nothing but justice and truth. But I have to work with what I've got.

    3. Will your mother provide some reasoning? I'm open to discussing whether or not Buddhism is harmful.

    4. Well, I haven't said that Christianity is the "worst" of the religions...yet. Do you think that the death toll is a fair or unfair medium to judge the righteousness of a religion? What would you suggest?
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    It almost sounds as if you're attacking me rather than Christianity, honestly.

    I'm not a Christian, but I do believe more in focusing on mental visions than on the physical... and I don't have a very high opinion of the physical/sensual world, because I feel that it's the physical world itself that devalues people and their identities, and is something of a mockery. I also believe that people inherently have the potential for evil/harm, though I would agree that good and evil are mostly relative to the person.

    The other thing I take exception to is the idea that serving yourself is better than humility. Yes, you're happier serving yourself, and that's fine. But some of us actually experience more joy from forgiving and helping others than from a meaningless existence of perpetual selfishness.

    On top of that, I truly hate nature and find it repulsive and disgusting.

    Many Christians actually LOVE nature because God created it, and act like everyone should enjoy it just for that reason. They go camping or hiking all the time. So annoying, don't get me started. They really think less of me for wanting to spend so much time indoors or lost in thought, and being so focused on the "things of man."

    Oh, and Christians are often extremely sensual people. I don't know where you get your information. I've seen them make out with each other and drink alcohol in the middle of bashing gays as unnatural and against God. Oh, and they're always singing that annoying Gospel music at the top of their lungs, and praying loudly so everyone can hear them (claim they don't want to "hide their light under a bushel").

    They're extremely nosy, too. They're always trying to stick their nose in your business, so they can judge you, and righteously help you "see the light" and change your ways to be more like theirs. They're so shallow and self-absorbed that they can't even conceive of a spirituality that doesn't revolve around imposing their own preferences on the people around them. Look at how they always personify infinity to have human characteristics and perspectives on reality. I mean, come on! Anyone that thinks past their impulses could see Christianity for the sham and delusion that it really is, and that spirituality is more than just saying prayers, spouting scripture right and left, and judging people for not meeting your standards. That's why I'm into things like philosophy, tarot, psychology, and astrology, things that Christians denounce as "evil."

    You seem to have one of the most skewed views of Christians I've ever heard. Then again, I've heard people say mine are skewed as well. I suppose it's probable that we have both based our views of Christians on our experiences, and that Christians are so common that we've actually ended up describing what we don't like about the culture around us.

    From what I can gather, Christianity is really little more than a collection of ideas that people use to justify their behavior and condemn that of others. Just like everything else in life, really. It really doesn't matter which behavior, though. They all use it differently, but claim to be a group so they can rally each other to their various causes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    You see, people can harm each other with dogma every day. That dogma could take the form of soviet communism which is inherently atheist, or just white supremicist dogma, which isn't necessarily associated with any particular religion. People are hateful. They hurt each other. Any philosophy can be twisted to serve the purpose of someone with selfish or misguided intentions.

    Most rational, non-religious people attempt to change their natures in order to fit into society. The modern world is a testament to abhorring the natural state of things. Morality isn't the only ethical framework that tells us our nature needs to be changed. Besides, who really wants to be running around like the Vikings, anyway? I sure don't.

    Even if you aren't a spiritual person, religion was a very useful form of teaching people to not act like violent, depraved animals. Today, instead, we have laws and PC ethics.

    Blindly fighting against Christianity, or any particular religion, is failing to see the big picture.
    What you said here in bold is an interesting point to look at. To me, the main differences between the Vikings and us, and by the way I don't know anything about Vikings, is technological. Technology is the embodiment of our aspirations. Technology I am all for, because it comes from our natural ability to reason. It is the perversion of reason that offends. A system of values that takes what is and calls it "backward" is not moral, and that is the point. What is is, as determined by our senses, and that should be our standard. If we could survive it, Christianity would have us not eat. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, fasting is a part of many religions. The world considers it holy to deny what is, that we need food, and people have mistaken cause and effect here. Things worth doing are often hard - they think that something is worth doing because it's hard.

    Rereading my original post, I used some strong words. I stand by them, but I should tailor the way my opinions are expressed on the forum, since I don't want to turn people away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It almost sounds as if you're attacking me rather than Christianity, honestly.

    I'm not a Christian, but I do believe more in focusing on mental visions than on the physical... and I don't have a very high opinion of the physical/sensual world, because 2. I feel that it's the physical world itself that devalues people and their identities, and is something of a mockery. I also believe that people inherently have the potential for evil/harm, though I would agree that good and evil are mostly relative to the person.

    3. The other thing I take exception to is the idea that serving yourself is better than humility. Yes, you're happier serving yourself, and that's fine. But some of us actually experience more joy from forgiving and helping others than from a meaningless existence of perpetual selfishness.
    4. On top of that, I truly hate nature and find it repulsive and disgusting.

    Many Christians actually LOVE nature because God created it, and act like everyone should enjoy it just for that reason. They go camping or hiking all the time. So annoying, don't get me started. They really think less of me for wanting to spend so much time indoors or lost in thought, and being so focused on the "things of man."

    Oh, and Christians are often extremely sensual people. I don't know where you get your information. I've seen them make out with each other and drink alcohol in the middle of bashing gays as unnatural and against God. Oh, and they're always singing that annoying Gospel music at the top of their lungs, and praying loudly so everyone can hear them (claim they don't want to "hide their light under a bushel").

    They're extremely nosy, too. They're always trying to stick their nose in your business, so they can judge you, and righteously help you "see the light" and change your ways to be more like theirs. They're so shallow and self-absorbed that they can't even conceive of a spirituality that doesn't revolve around imposing their own preferences on the people around them. Look at how they always personify infinity to have human characteristics and perspectives on reality. I mean, come on!

    5. You seem to have one of the most skewed views of Christians I've ever heard. Then again, I've heard people say mine are skewed as well. I suppose it's probable that we have both based our views of Christians on our experiences, and that Christians are so common that we've actually ended up describing what we don't like about the culture around us.

    From what I can gather, Christianity is really little more than a collection of ideas that people use to justify their behavior and condemn that of others. Just like everything else, really. It really doesn't matter which behavior, though. They all use it differently, but claim to be a group so they can rally each other to their various causes.
    1. I'm posing an argument against a value system. I think you're awesome.

    2. Please think about this some more. The physical world is all that is. Values and Identities are ideas that we try to add to it, but we don't actually add to it, because we can't. The person standing to my left hates me. The person to my right loves me. A third person tells me "I'm going to name you Brian." What changes? Nothing. We are just four people standing in a room. Everything else is false. I am an imaginative person as well, which is why it is so important for people like you and I to be able to tell the difference between what is real and not real, and to make reasonable conclusions based on the information we are able to collect from the world.


    3. Think about this some more too. I don't mean to sound condescending by telling you to rethink these issues, but you're stumbling upon some very important ideas, that's all. You said "some of us actually experience more joy from forgiving and helping others than from a meaningless existence of perpetual selfishness." If you are one of those people, then for you, helping people is selfish. I never said that one shouldn't help people. Lots of people like to help, like you said, and they should. Other people derive joy from designing buildings or working on nanotechnology. They should. Something to consider is that if you are one of these people who loves to help, then not helping people would be a sacrifice for you. Sacrifice means self-mutilation. I stand against sacrifice. If you came over to my house, I would consider it a special occasion. So should I get out my best and most expensive bottle of wine? Is it virtuous for YOU to drink MY best bottle of wine instead of me? Why is it virtuous for ME to drink YOUR bottle of wine? I am right in drinking any wine but my own? What if I only had enough for one glass left, which I was thinking about enjoying alone some night? The Christians would say, "give him your last glass, and you drink the cheap wine." Why should there be any sort of sacrifice involved? Why is this right? I would serve us both the cheaper wine, because we are equals. I won't get on my knees because I am not below you, nor would I expect or appreciate you bowing down to me.

    4. I am using the word "nature" in its truest sense. I am not talking about squirrels and creepy-crawly things. I am talking about that which is made up of atoms.

    5. Skewed by what standards? It's reasonable. That's the only standard.
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    Original Sin is a personal attack, on all of us. It says that if we do not recieve "forgiveness" for our "sin", then we are condemened to eternal suffering. And what's more, this "sin" is merely being born a human being.

    The basic outcome? People feel guilt over normal human behaviour. Sounds like brainwashing to me.

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