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An honest question about god and his ways

sabastious

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It's almost cliche nowadays to hear someone say that they are blessed by god in some sort of way. A lot of times when a pro football player gets a touchdown he points to the sky (god).

This has always perplexed me. As that pro football player is pointing to the sky, thanking god for giving him the strength/courage/opportunity to score that touchdown, there is probably a very smal child about to die of starvation in a different part of the world.

The same goes for really any person who holds the opinion that their good fortune is a 'blessing' from god.

I'm not blanketing all christians here, but I do see a lot of this. Why do us American's get so many 'blessings' whereas people in other parts of the world get to scavenge for food. What did they do that was so bad not to get part of these blessings from god? (like financial stability, sustenance and covering)

So my question is why do some people think that fortunate situations are some sort of reward for their good deeds?

If god exists, why would he be blessing some people who believe in him and letting others, who also believe in him, suffer and die?
 

Blank

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They kicked puppies and kittens in past lives and are paying for it now.

Karma's a bitch.
 

Owl

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"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

In what does true blessedness consist?
 

Kasper

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I'm not religious so I may not answer how you mean but I believe you can see blessings/good fortune in any situation if you chose to, starvation is a horrible problem in some parts of the world but I'm sure there are all sorts of blessings that could be seen if you saw it from a closer perspective.

I don’t suggest that there aren't some seemingly senseless things in the world that can bring pain and suffering, just that what you view as a blessing is dependent on personal perspective. Maybe a child simply being born and living in those conditions is a blessing in someone's eyes. The idea is to be grateful for what you do have.
 

swordpath

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^I disagree, if you're starving and deprived of the essentials you're without blessing. You don't have the bare minimum or have so little of the minimum that you're in a constant state of worry about how you'll at least sustain that minimum and keep from dying. What kind of life is that? Where is the blessing in that? Some people are fortunate in life and some are not so. "God" doesn't care or he'd change things.
 

WickedQueen

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"Every soul shall have a taste of death, and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. To Us must ye return." (Quran 21:35)

"Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves, and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs." (Quran 3:186)

"Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil). But give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah we belong, and to Him is our return." They are those on whom (descend) blessings from Allah, and mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance." (Quran 2:155-157)


My poin is:
Happiness, sadness, blessed, cursed... All of that are test from God to see how you can handle things and yet still believe in Him. Fortunate situations doesn't always means blessed, and unfortunate situations doesn't always means cursed.


.
 

BerberElla

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"Every soul shall have a taste of death, and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. To Us must ye return." (Quran 21:35)

"Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves, and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs." (Quran 3:186)

"Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil). But give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah we belong, and to Him is our return." They are those on whom (descend) blessings from Allah, and mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance." (Quran 2:155-157)


My poin is:
Happiness, sadness, blessed, cursed... All of that are test from God to see how you can handle things and yet still believe in Him. Fortunate situations doesn't always means blessed, and unfortunate situations doesn't always means cursed.


.

So the young girl who gets sexually abused from when she was a child, who finally goes on to kill herself in despair as an adult, fails this test right?
 

Owl

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I'm not religious so I may not answer how you mean but I believe you can see blessings/good fortune in any situation if you chose to, starvation is a horrible problem in some parts of the world but I'm sure there are all sorts of blessings that could be seen if you saw it from a closer perspective.

I don’t suggest that there aren't some seemingly senseless things in the world that can bring pain and suffering, just that what you view as a blessing is dependent on personal perspective. Maybe a child simply being born and living in those conditions is a blessing in someone's eyes. The idea is to be grateful for what you do have.

I answered Sabastious' question with a question, because his question assumed that suffering and death precluded God's blessing, and, perhaps, he also thinks that blessing consists in the absence of suffering.

Whereas Job was forced to endure much suffering before he could say: "I had heard of you with the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes see you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

^I disagree, if you're starving and deprived of the essentials you're without blessing. You don't have the bare minimum or have so little of the minimum that you're in a constant state of worry about how you'll at least sustain that minimum and keep from dying. What kind of life is that? Where is the blessing in that? Some people are fortunate in life and some are not so. "God" doesn't care or he'd change things.

What are the essentials? Is the preservation of physical life the end in itself? Or is physical health and life a natural vitue, a means to the good, the end in itself?
 

swordpath

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What are the essentials? Is the preservation of physical life the end in itself? Or is physical health and life a natural vitue, a means to the good, the end in itself?
All we know is the physical life, the rest is left to speculation and imagination... If our life on earth is to be considered a gift by God, should we not be blessed with the means to live free from a constant state of "survival mode" so that we can enjoy ourselves and better the human race?

If one wants to say that it's God's blessing for your good job, your healthy family, your nice car, your good looks and your impressive talent than it's only logical to say that it's God's withholding in situations on the opposite end of the spectrum.
 

WickedQueen

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So the young girl who gets sexually abused from when she was a child, who finally goes on to kill herself in despair as an adult, fails this test right?

I don't know she fails or not, it's not my right to decide.

All I know is she's not the only person who gets sexually abused. There are other girls that had much worst sexually abused situation (oh yes, I know some of them) and yet they are survive and move on. She have the opportunity to move on with her life, but she chose to gave up.


.
 

BerberElla

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I don't know she fails or not, it's not my right to decide.

All I know is she's not the only person who gets sexually abused. There are other girls that had much worst sexually abused situation (oh yes, I know some of them) and yet they are survive and move on. She have the opportunity to move on with her life, but she chose to gave up.


.


Not at all, every person handles things in a different way, what would be easy to handle for one, wouldn't be easy for another.

Not only that but her destiny was already written for her (maktoob), allah decided before she was born that she would be abused, and she would kill herself, so even had she wanted to live her life was written when she was in womb.

Then you have the fact that allah claims he doesn't give any soul more than it can handle, and yet what the hell is suicide, aisde from people going through more than they can handle?

I very much disagree with the quranic quotes you posted, it's all mush really, promises and assurances that are actually empty when you read the tasfir and hadiths surrounding them.
 

Owl

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All we know is the physical life, the rest is left to speculation and imagination... If our life on earth is to be considered a gift by God, should we not be blessed with the means to live free from a constant state of "survival mode" so that we can enjoy ourselves and better the human race?

If one wants to say that it's God's blessing for your good job, your healthy family, your nice car, your good looks and your impressive talent than it's only logical to say that it's God's withholding in situations on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I'd say our knowledge of the existence of the soul--and therefore spiritual life--is far more immediate, and thereofe far more certain than our knowledge of the physical. And we've always the means to attain spiritual life, and therefore we're always free to make use of those means to remain alive.
 

swordpath

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Maybe it's different for you, but my knowledge of the soul is very limited to non-existent. I see/feel what's around me in the physical world and I'm receptive to that.
 

WickedQueen

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Not at all, every person handles things in a different way, what would be easy to handle for one, wouldn't be easy for another.

It's true, but that doesn't hide the fact that she did have many options and had chosen her own destiny.


Not only that but her destiny was already written for her (maktoob), allah decided before she was born that she would be abused, and she would kill herself, so even had she wanted to live her life was written when she was in womb.

I disagree that her fate was to die by suicide. Destiny/fate is more complicated than what you think. What had written for us wasn't only one way of living. We have a lot of options and also a lot of endings. The key is too keep believing that God love us and give us opportunities and options to choose our own destiny.

"... Thus, God does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change..." (Quran 13:11)


Then you have the fact that allah claims he doesn't give any soul more than it can handle, and yet what the hell is suicide, aisde from people going through more than they can handle?

"... You shall not kill yourselves. God is Merciful towards you." (Quran 4:29)

Why would God decided, before we were born, that we would die by suicide but in the same time He forbid us to kill ourselves?? I don't believe that He will ever make us to kill ourselves. Suicide is our decision to make.


I very much disagree with the quranic quotes you posted, it's all mush really, promises and assurances that are actually empty when you read the tasfir and hadiths surrounding them.

"... Certainly, God's promise is truth. Therefore, do not be distracted by this life..." (Quran 31:33)

"And I will not worship that which you have been wont to worship, nor will you worship that which I worship. To you your way, and to me my way." (Quran 109:4-6)

I respect your beliefs and I fully expect that you will have the same courage to respect of what I believe. Thank you.


.
 

ragashree

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Not at all, every person handles things in a different way, what would be easy to handle for one, wouldn't be easy for another.

I believe this may be precicely Wickedqueen's point on this issue. A test which could be passed with ease by an individual would not be a very meaningful one for them, would it?

Not only that but her destiny was already written for her (maktoob), allah decided before she was born that she would be abused, and she would kill herself, so even had she wanted to live her life was written when she was in womb.

This seems overly simplistic for me given the stress that Islam appears to lay on personal responsibility. My impression at any rate was that there were fundamental elements of both free will and predestination in Islamic theology (though predestination may be the stronger), which makes this seem like either an absolutist assertion of predestination which is at variance with actual teachings, or something of a strawman.


I very much disagree with the quranic quotes you posted, it's all mush really, promises and assurances that are actually empty when you read the tasfir and hadiths surrounding them.

Interesting, but I for one haven't read the latter, and am also not sure whether they're universally accepted by Muslims. Wickedqueen's response implies otherwise at any rate. Could you provide any evidence of how they contradict the verses she's quoted so that any of us who are neutral on this issue are in a better position to decide for ourselves?
 

BerberElla

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Could you provide any evidence of how they contradict the verses she's quoted so that any of us who are neutral on this issue are in a better position to decide for ourselves?

I could, but I'm not going to. Wickedqueen is right, it is her belief and I respect that she believes what she believes.

Honestly I have no idea why I posted in this thread, truth is I am tired of debating such a subjective topic.
 

Athenian200

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Honestly I have no idea why I posted in this thread, truth is I am tired of debating such a subjective topic.

I agree. Religion really isn't worth talking about, honestly. You either believe in it and accept it, or you don't. There's no reasoning involved. Even religious texts themselves say it's a matter of faith.

I can't discuss religion without feeling threatened and angry, so I'm probably going to abstain from commenting on such topics from now on. You've made a wise choice here, so I'm following your example. No need to fuel the fire and create more tension. Best that they live their way, and we live ours.
 
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