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View Poll Results: If you were forced to chose, would you say free-will exists (in some form)?

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  • Yes. Free will exists in some form.

    18 72.00%
  • No. Free will does not exists in any form.

    3 12.00%
  • Screw You! I will not be forced to decide.

    4 16.00%
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  1. #51
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So how are those who rebel against and overthrow the system conditioned, once the system has become stable and everyone is conditioned in the same way? Wouldn't all the dissenters have been conditioned away?
    Ah, this is where I differ from INTPS

    Let's assume that

    a1) We are all just the sum of our base programming
    AND
    a2) Our programming is adaptive to our environment

    AND

    b1) Our programming is pruned at the macro level (pruning of genetics)
    AND
    b2) Our programming works at the micro level (conditioning)

    (ie: genetics = function, conditioning = passed variable)

    So,

    i) rebel against and overthrow the system conditioned

    What does rebel mean? We are assuming that a) is correct, so they are not rebels, they are fulfilling their programming. As per a1) and b1), the programming is adapting to new situations in which certain conditions prompt certain responses. As in b1), this pruning takes place once the reaction takes place, meaning latent programming from a1) remains, also meaning that dissenters are not reconditioned at all - they can revert easily as the situation changes. As per b2), similar code can have drastic changes with just a change of environment (from passive to violent within minutes, if not seconds).

    That follows into;

    ii) once the system has become stable

    There is no stable system. The world changes, our programming changes, our conditioning changes. We aren't written in the sense that we are designed to "pick up rocks, put down rocks" where deviancy is obvious. The end effect, no matter what effect it is, comes from our programming - adaptive changing programming.

    To put it in perspective, a thousand years ago we fought with spears, while now we can wipe all life from the planet. There is no "stable" - our programming changes the rules, the reactions, our abilities, our conditioning... We have gone from "life is cheap" 500 years ago to "human rights for all!" now... also a change of conditioning. But the code of who we are has barely changed in a thousand years (well, black plague stuff aside).

    The system itself is never stable. It changes at all three levels - environment, programming and conditioning. Deviancy could be seen as an evolution of those, or an attempted evolution, at the micro level. IOW, just an adaptation where if the programming fails, it is pruned.

    The same goes with conditioning;

    iii) dissenters have been conditioned away

    Proof of concept: is human rights programmed into our mindset from the beginning? Yes - the golden rule is nearly universal in any time period. But the context is different (tribal, nation, family, etc) Is the concept of "enemy", the "other" also programmed? Yes. It's the frame of reference that changes. "We are always at war with...".

    Just ask yourself, 50 years ago - what was the number 1 terrorist group in the world. What would you answer now? Can you isolate conditioning that is the same between the two groups?

    Why was there a large scale "moral" failure heading into WW2 in Germany? Because the environment and our programming made it inevitable. Magnification of triggers through media, the breakdown of the Golden rule (unfair treatment post WW1)... the triggering of the other (they were isolated). Same code, same conditioning... leading to a different environment with new conditioning.

    Therein lies the question - just how different do you think you are? It can happen here, there... anywhere there are humans, the same conditions can rise. There is no safety net - we are a sum of our environment and our programming.

    Every small and large reaction comes from complex code - not direct causation. It's how we self-organise. A city without traffic lights isn't significantly better than one with. The effects are done at the margin... One form of organisation isn't that different than another... the degree of complexity, etc... the tools we use... Everything changes.

    It's impossible for these i,ii and iii to be true because the removal of dissenters would be a removal of our core coding. To be adaptive is to have an unstable system - a constant stream of emergent systems, if you will.

  2. #52
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Ah, this is where I differ from INTPS
    And most of your post is where I differ from the TPs.

    Why was there a large scale "moral" failure heading into WW2 in Germany? Because the environment and our programming made it inevitable. Magnification of triggers through media, the breakdown of the Golden rule (unfair treatment post WW1)... the triggering of the other (they were isolated). Same code, same conditioning... leading to a different environment with new conditioning.

    Therein lies the question - just how different do you think you are? It can happen here, there... anywhere there are humans, the same conditions can rise. There is no safety net - we are a sum of our environment and our programming.
    I agree with this.

    Has anyone read The Exception by Christian Jungersen? From reviews cited on the book's webpage:

    The Exception is excellent on so many things: the texture of office life, the appalling inconsistencies and lacunas in our perceptions of our own characters, the way intelligent people use the insights of psychology not to deepen their self-awareness but to calumniate one another with more sophisticated accusations.

    ... Anyone who has ever worked with others will immediately recognize the jockeying for position, the passive-aggressive behavior and escalating harassment ... What is new is that Jungersen does not dismiss this behavior as simple office politics or female cattiness. In deft, believable touches he ratchets up the dread and draws a clear line from breaking a vase in a co-worker's office to Kristallnacht.

    Aside from being a suspenseful page-turner, The Exception challenges our complacency and self-regard at every turn. We all wonder at times what we would do if we were faced with another Holocaust, a Rwanda right here on our shores. Jungersen's book can't answer that question, but it does make us ask it of ourselves. In his hands, the personal has never seemed more political, and redemption itself, while possible, is shot through with self-delusion.
    I highly recommend it.

  3. #53
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    Isn't Free Will a movie about a killer whale and some kid?

  4. #54
    Senior Member Recluse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Isn't Free Will a movie about a killer whale and some kid?
    You're thinking of "Free Willy," which sounds like the title of a porno flick but is actually that of a children's film. I won't speculate on the reasoning behind that marketing decision.
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    I didn't say that I didn't say it. I said that I didn't say that I said it. I want to make that very clear.

  5. #55

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    This thread has gotten more participation....

    So much to respond to... but I need to get back to work... and I also need sleep. Perhaps it is just my nature to be distracted....

    Since a lot of the discussion has centered around morality, I wonder what people think of a couple of the premises used in A Proof of Free Will

    In particular:
    2. Whatever should be done can be done. (premise)
    But premise one also uses "should". It seems like premise 1 really doesn't beg the question, since the people here who believe free-will does not exist, seem to believe in some form of "should".

    I'm with BlueWing. I think the question of free will is intimately connected to the question "Who am I?" It is asked by many of the ancient religions.

    To ask if something has free-will, we need do know where the boudary of that something is.

    Do the memes I've encountered run my thought process and affect who I am?
    Are those memes part of me, and if they are, then are they participating in the decision and therefore engaging free-will?

    Does my biology run my decision making? Is my biology part of me? and if so, is it not making the decision as it chooses?

    When I get hurt, sometimes I am aware of it, sometimes I have too much adreneline pumping to notice while playing sports. Sometimes I see something happen to myself that should make me say "ouch", but I don't because I don't feel it (till the rush wears off). Sometimes, in these situations, I chosse to say ouch.

    What is the "agent" that does or does not have free will?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Inspired by

    The Quantum Soul

    How do you differ from your type?

    and Type xxxx-Does it Exist

    Does Free will exist?

    Consider:

    A Proof of Free Will

    and

    Conway's Proof of the Free Will Theorem


    The philosophical proof in the first site can be summarized as follows (MFT means minimum free-will theorem):


    I actually argued with the prof. on premise 2, and we finally had to let it go.

    The physics is interesting in the second site, but the short of it is on of two things are true:



    Anyway, just food for thought. It is interesting that we are positing free-will at the particle level.


    Nostradamus book predicted hitler and there is your answer
    In order for society to survive, we must all pitch in and cooperate with one another, split the resources fairly.
    If we get greedy, everything will fall apart
    The main reason why there is no long peace is because everything is set and stone.
    Another is that resources are limited and the ones who had the most goes bad because they are in control.

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