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  1. #31
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ?

    No, it doesn't. Not at all

    Think through that again.

    • You haven't verified that other people have not been capable of this.
    • You haven't verified whether or not he's doing something that others might be able to discern how to accomplish.
    • You haven't verified that, even if he's more than human, he's actually still "the son of God."


    You took a VERY large leap there -- from "perceived miracle" to "Son of God."
    Ah I should have clarified. Your first two points are meant to be part of the premise. I'm thinking more from the perspective of being a fly on the wall in the Gospel story, rather than being in a crowd at a Benny Hinn service. In the former the water to wine miracle for example was done spontaneously at someone else's house and a lot of people there are acquainted with him and his family. In the latter case the whole service is specially prepared ahead of time before a crowd of strangers. The potential for trickery is much greater in the second case (not to mention the huge disparity in technology between the two eras).

    Your third point is valid. Just because someone is powerful, it doesn't mean they are benevolent. (I was actually trying to goad you into developing this point more, but you didn't take the bait.)


    Still I think a miracle would be the most obvious proof most people would accept if someone else claimed they were the Son of God. (Rather than say reason or character.) A character test requires that you know the person fairly well, and I can't fathom how reason by itself would be acceptable at all.
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  2. #32
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Liquid Laser,

    Correct me if this is not an accurate interpretation of your view.

    1)In order for it to be shown that Jesus is the Son of God, we must know he is more than man. 2)In order for it to be shown he is more than man, he must pull off a task that is not possible for man to pull off, as for instance, turning water into whine.

    If for example it is shown that Jesus did turn water into whine and he is much more gifted than a man, therefore Son of God.


    How does the virtue of this one man present an argument in favor of the truth of Christian theology?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Liquid Laser,

    Correct me if this is not an accurate interpretation of your view.

    1)In order for it to be shown that Jesus is the Son of God, we must know he is more than man. 2)In order for it to be shown he is more than man, he must pull off a task that is not possible for man to pull off, as for instance, turning water into whine.

    If for example it is shown that Jesus did turn water into whine and he is much more gifted than a man. Though what exactly does it mean to be the Son of God? How gifted does he need to be to merit this accolade.

    Moreover, how does the virtue of this one man present an argument in favor of the truth of Christian theology?
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  4. #34
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Liquid Laser,

    Correct me if this is not an accurate interpretation of your view.

    1)In order for it to be shown that Jesus is the Son of God, we must know he is more than man. 2)In order for it to be shown he is more than man, he must pull off a task that is not possible for man to pull off, as for instance, turning water into whine.

    If for example it is shown that Jesus did turn water into whine and he is much more gifted than a man, therefore Son of God.


    How does the virtue of this one man present an argument in favor of the truth of Christian theology?
    My original point was really a criticism of the idea that reason alone could prove someone is the Son of God. How does one prove such a thing simply by making an argument? I was asserting that most people would simply accept a convincing miracle as proof.

    Overall my view does include Jennifer's point though. To be sure he is the Son of God he must
    a) have power beyond human capability
    b) have divine character in a moral/ethical sense
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  5. #35
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    a) have power beyond human capability
    b) have divine character in a moral/ethical sense
    Is the quoted above the definition of Son of God? If not, what is such a definition.
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  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Your third point is valid. Just because someone is powerful, it doesn't mean they are benevolent.
    That was not actually my point.
    My point was what I actually expressed.
    Benevolence had nothing to do with it.

    I'm not sure how you are processing my ideas; you seem to change them into something else and then address those ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Your first two points are meant to be part of the premise. I'm thinking more from the perspective of being a fly on the wall in the Gospel story, rather than being in a crowd at a Benny Hinn service. In the former the water to wine miracle for example was done spontaneously at someone else's house and a lot of people there are acquainted with him and his family. In the latter case the whole service is specially prepared ahead of time before a crowd of strangers. The potential for trickery is much greater in the second case (not to mention the huge disparity in technology between the two eras).
    I hope I didn't confuse things by mentioning Benny Hinn.

    I am approaching your comments as a logical argument.
    I am pointing out the flaws in the logic you expressed.
    You draw conclusions that do not necessarily follow from the premises.
    That's my point.

    If you're not trying to logically make an argument, then maybe that's why we're not communicating? I don't know.... But in any case, that's what I'm doing: Condensing your comments to the logical structure, then testing and flagging the weak spots.

    (I was actually trying to goad you into developing this point more, but you didn't take the bait.)
    ha. And so I am either too crafty or too dense to fall into your trap!

    Still I think a miracle would be the most obvious proof most people would accept if someone else claimed they were the Son of God. (Rather than say reason or character.) A character test requires that you know the person fairly well, and I can't fathom how reason by itself would be acceptable at all.
    But do you realize that the people who loved Jesus might not have even met him before... but they loved him because of his character? Some also did come to him for miracles, but what attracted them was his character... and they didn't even really "know" him. How many times did people comment on Jesus' character in the scriptures?

    Meanwhile, the priests hated him because of the miracles and because of their theology, which Jesus was violating. (Reason and miracle.) They were also too blind to see his character. They couldn't experience goodness in relationship, they just had a doctrinal checklist and Jesus didn't fit.

    Sorry, I am tired and am losing my point here. I think it's character, not theology (directly), that attracts people to a spiritual path long-term and has the power to make changes in people's lives. A claim to be the son of God by an immoral person would hold no power. And even a crook or evil man can do miracles or pretend to (theoretically).
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  7. #37
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Is the quoted above the definition of Son of God? If not, what is such a definition.
    To be rigorous a complete definition must explicitly include these three points.
    He must
    a) have power beyond human capability
    b) have divine character in a moral/ethical sense
    c) claim to be the Son of God

    This is in a practical sense. Theoretically if you could be absolutely certain of b), then you wouldn't need a). I.e. if you know the person will never attempt to deceive you and is in their right mind, then c) must make him the Son of God. In reality establishing absolute certainty in b) is difficult, so we rely on a) as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    If you're not trying to logically make an argument, then maybe that's why we're not communicating? I don't know.... But in any case, that's what I'm doing: Condensing your comments to the logical structure, then testing and flagging the weak spots.
    I think we've been talking past each other, so let me clarify. I wasn't initially trying to build a logical argument, only offering a criticism. I still don't see how logic alone can prove someone is the Son of God. My first attempt at a logical construct is posted above.

    But do you realize that the people who loved Jesus might not have even met him before... but they loved him because of his character? Some also did come to him for miracles, but what attracted them was his character... and they didn't even really "know" him. How many times did people comment on Jesus' character in the scriptures?

    Meanwhile, the priests hated him because of the miracles and because of their theology, which Jesus was violating. (Reason and miracle.) They were also too blind to see his character. They couldn't experience goodness in relationship, they just had a doctrinal checklist and Jesus didn't fit.
    My read of the scriptures is that most people weren't attracted to him initially because of his character. The initial attraction was that he was a miracle worker and potentially their Messiah. After people met him, the ones who stayed with him stayed because of his character. "Come for the miracles. Stay for the character."

    If someone today came up claiming to be the Son of God, most people would not give them the time of day regardless of how virtuous the person was. You would need something like a miracle to get their attention to investigate further.
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  8. #38
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    To be rigorous a complete definition must
    b) have divine character in a moral/ethical sense
    .

    What is 'divine'?
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  9. #39
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    My read of the scriptures is that most people weren't attracted to him initially because of his character. The initial attraction was that he was a miracle worker and potentially their Messiah. After people met him, the ones who stayed with him stayed because of his character. "Come for the miracles. Stay for the character."
    That's one interesting thing, isn't it?
    The pharisees hated him because of the miracles, initially.
    (Then they hated him because the people loved him and he wasn't following the rules.)

    If someone today came up claiming to be the Son of God, most people would not give them the time of day regardless of how virtuous the person was. You would need something like a miracle to get their attention to investigate further.
    I think the problem with miracles is that people are jaded. I don't see people being inclined to believe and follow someone honestly, just because they can do miracles.

    This is why Jesus basically wouldn't do miracles sometimes, wasn't it?
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  10. #40
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    Faith? As in religion? My review of them:

    Judaism: I was born a Jew, but I do not believe in the notion of a divine all encompassing god. Sorry. I still will wear the title of Jew proudly, because I was born one, and I support the Jewish people. And I believe according to Jewish law, if your mother was a Jew, then so are you.

    Christianity: To me, Jesus was a loudmouth that got whacked by the Romans. A nice guy, sure, but remember, 2000 years ago, in addition to believing in divine shenanigans, people also thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.

    Islam: Read up some history on Mohammed. It's not pretty. And of course, you have a LOT of people that simply kill others for not believing in their invisible man. I happen to think they're symptoms of the religion itself like coughing and fever are symptoms of the flu, not extremists.

    Shinto: I find the beliefs of this religion interesting. From what I do know, there are spirits everywhere, and from what I've heard, there are shrines in Japan set up in extremely out of the way places that one can ask for a blessing in from the local spirits. Sure, it's improbable, but it's never hurt anyone, and it seems those that practice it achieve some lucidity and other decent states of living.

    Buddhism: Ehhh...completely flies in the face of human nature.

    Scientology/Zoroastrianism: don't know enough about them.

    Belief in the force: believe it or not, some people allegedly started a religion based on Star Wars. Use the force, doods!

    Frankly, though, I think George Carlin said it best.

    "But in the bullshit department--in the bullshit department, a businessman--can't hold a candle...to a clergyman.

    Because when it comes to bullshit...big time, major-league BULLSHIT, you have to stand in awe...in awe of the all time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims...religion. No contest. No contest. Religion.

    Religion easily has the biggest bullshit story ever told. Think about it! Religion has actually convinced people...that there's an invisible man...living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.

    And this invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and burn and suffer and choke and scream and cry forever and ever until the end of time!

    But he loves you.

    He loves you. He loves you, and he needs money! He always needs money! He's all powerful, all perfect, all knowing, and all wise, somehow...just can't handle money!

    Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story...

    HOLY SHIT

    You can see the rest of it here...

    YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is Bullshit - HQ
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