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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So, why didn't God just decide that people didn't need to sacrifice to gods anymore?

    In fact, if he wanted to, he could simply reimagine history such that no sacrifices to gods had ever been made. He can do that--he's God.

    For that matter, he could whip himself up another son in a jiffy, since he's God and all.

    I just really don't buy the concept of God as being 'forced' to do anything. "Ohh nooooo I have to choose between my son and humanity's salvation!!"

    No, you don't. Just change the conditions governing the universe; you're God!
    he could, but then God would violate the basic virtues that we interpret as good and noble, such as integrity. if humans are to look up to a God, one thing he must be, is be reflective of all that is good and virtuous. after all, we ARE made in the image of God

    we are given a CHOICE to follow or diregard anything we want. any constraints that bound us today are human-imposed.

    its a lesson to humanity. we choose to learn or we choose to ignore. regardless, its there for study

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    You'll have to excuse my doubts that you have a clue as to what you're talking about.
    Your fall back position seems to be the insult.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    he could, but then God would violate the basic virtues that we interpret as good and noble, such as integrity. if humans are to look up to a God, one thing he must be, is be reflective of all that is good and virtuous. after all, we ARE made in the image of God

    we are given a CHOICE to follow or diregard anything we want. any constraints that bound us today are human-imposed.

    its a lesson to humanity. we choose to learn or we choose to ignore. regardless, its there for study
    The problem is that this kind of Apologetics requires double-think.

    And double-think and intellectual integrity are strange bed fellows.

  4. #84
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    he could, but then God would violate the basic virtues that we interpret as good and noble, such as integrity. if humans are to look up to a God, one thing he must be, is be reflective of all that is good and virtuous. after all, we ARE made in the image of God
    I agree with this within the constraints of your framework.

    However, there is no universal law saying that:
    • God must be someone we look up to.
    • God must be good, noble, and virtuous
    • God must be rational
    • God must be consistent


    Those are all assumptions about God.

    In terms of making decisions about one's life, they seem reasonable; but in terms of rational logic, they cannot validate that the faith system is true. They're just constraints you've chosen to operate under because they seem to mesh with what you want to believe is true (which is fine, and I might even share some of those assumptions with you -- I just want to call a spade a spade).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #85
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Your fall back position seems to be the insult.
    Well then what do you really know about Christianity, esp. Catholicism? You seem to spout half truths and incomplete knowledge. I don't really think it's fair to bash and criticize the religion, when you're not well versed in what it really teaches.

    A man and a woman are in a car, the woman is crying and has a bandage on her nose. It may look like the man is a woman beater to the skeptic, but in actuality the woman just got a nose job. Is it right for the onlooker to "save" the woman by attacking the man to teach him a lesson?

    If one doesn't really know the meaning of the crucifxion of Jesus and the reasons why it happened according to Christians, how can on make claims about the nature of the religion or its God?
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  6. #86
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    Taken in a literal sense, I completely agree with you.

    But as it stands, it does make for good allegory. If God just magically fixed our situation in the stories, we wouldn't exactly have any life lessons to learn from them.
    Right, and I appreciate the conventional wisdom contained in the Bible.

    There's much to be learned from it in terms of history, cultural influence, art and moral guidance.

    It's just ridiculous to think it's literally true.

    I can totally get behind the values that Christ was promoting--love thy neighbor, don't judge others, be nice to people, etc. That's great and it was pretty revolutionary for his time.

    I just don't think he had supernatural powers, and I'm pretty damn sure he's not coming back from the dead.

    Doesn't mean we can't appreciate what he had to say, but why attach all this "HELL AWAITS NONBELIEVERS!!!!" crap to it? It's obviously intended allegorically to help us make moral decisions and guide us through life--if you miss the message and focus on the arbitrary rituals and hellfire and damnation for sinners, you're missing the point, and badly.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if God exists literally--he probably doesn't; that's not the point.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #87
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if God exists literally--he probably doesn't; that's not the point.
    This is a very important distinction.


    The best way to find God/s is to seek his nonexistence. Conversely, the quickest way to overlook God is to try to explicitly assert his presence.



    Very insightful point, SW.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    The best way to find God/s is to seek his nonexistence.
    What does this mean?

  9. #89
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What does this mean?
    Undertake a personal quest to divorce what you believe (personal faith) from what you've been instructed to believe.

    As faith is wholly concerned with belief without empirical data, seeking God is an ideal that must be fertilized independent of external pressure. Anything less is intellectual dishonesty.

    Accounting for this inequality is crucial -- without intimate comprehension of what one considers a 'god' to be/not be, one simply parrots third-party ideology. In short, you're choosing to believe/disbelieve not on the basis of personal exploration, but instead on steadfast bureaucratic codes of cultural conduct that likely have absolutely nothing to do with whatever a 'god' is or is not.

    Religious faith is a question of individuality; not a communal expression of aged cultural norms.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Undertake a personal quest to divorce what you believe (personal faith) from what you've been instructed to believe.

    As faith is wholly concerned with belief without empirical data, seeking God is an ideal that must be fertilized independent of external pressure. Anything less is intellectual dishonesty.
    Accounting for this inequality is crucial -- without intimate comprehension of what one considers a 'god' to be/not be, one simply parrots third-party ideology. In short, you're choosing to believe/disbelieve not on the basis of personal exploration, but instead on steadfast bureaucratic codes of cultural conduct that likely have absolutely nothing to do with whatever a 'god' is or is not.

    Religious faith is a question of individuality; not a communal expression of aged cultural norms.
    This cannot be done practically because the very existence of the concept will always come from the 'outside'. It defies meta-cognition. A person born in isolation will never be aware that what he is contemplating is 'god' or not...unless he is aware of the concept in the first place. The seed will need to be planted someway, it can never come from inside without any outside influence. Ever.

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