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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    Religion is a powerful tool for controlling large masses of people.
    It's worth noting that it was also out of religious conviction that many confronted the horrors of political tyranny. There's an endless list of examples of this.

    A major dramatization of this point was Robert Bolt's play(and later film) "A Man for all Seasons" - concerning the life of Sir Thomas More. Perhaps it should be noted that Robert Bolt was an agnostic, but still admired More as a man who stayed true to his principles in the face of oppression:

    Scenes from A Man For all Seasons(film).

  2. #42
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Christianity is an oppressive religion in several ways. It discourages individuality and self-expression, and promotes the idea that there is but one correct path and destination in life that everyone should follow. It also encourages discrimination against women and intolerance of homosexuality and similar issues.

    It specifically discourages critical thinking and self-determination, presuming to decide your goals and ideals for you, and furthermore compelling you to sacrifice your own wants and needs in life to these.

    It is nothing more than a tool of oppression, a virus that infects the minds of otherwise well-meaning people, and causes them to see their oppressive actions towards others as benevolent. It causes them to see injustice and hypocrisy as righteousness. It blinds them to the reality of how they're treating others so much that I no longer hold them responsible for their actions towards innocent people.

    I am most disgusted at how they place the words written in a dusty old book over the happiness and comfort of the people around them. They don't care what they do to people who happen to need or want something in life that happens to fall outside the parameters set by that book (which are often unjustified or archaic), they just insist on conformity and self-denial in bondage to those laws as an absolute good.*
    How many Christians do you know personally?


    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    That being said, haven't we had enough Christianity bashing?
    Yes.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    That being said, haven't we had enough Christianity bashing?
    May I suggest we bash Scientology instead?
    Is not to be held accuntable for peeling errors.

  4. #44
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    How many Christians do you know personally?
    I knew plenty, around 10-15 at different points. The general pattern was that they were brainwashed and intolerant of individuality. They tried to be good people, but their faith often blinded them to the real consequences of their actions. It was really depressing.

    Everything I've heard people saying about escaping from Christian environments reinforces it rather well.

    If you don't feel that that's who you are, explain why. But you're going to have a hard time explaining any positives to someone who sees Christians as a personal threat to their own well-being and self-expression, and that of their allies.

  5. #45
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I knew plenty, around 10-15 at different points. The general pattern was that they were brainwashed and intolerant of individuality. They tried to be good people, but their faith often blinded them to the real consequences of their actions. It was really depressing.

    Everything I've heard people saying about escaping from Christian
    So, you have decided from your impressions of the "general pattern" of 10-15 people that the whole of Christianity is "a tool of oppression?"

    You have indicated in other threads on this forum that you avoid social contact with people most of the time. I can't help but doubt that you have had real relationships with enough people to make these sorts of determinations about even those people, much less millions of people who may or may not share the same basic faith.

    If you don't feel that that's who you are, explain why.
    I have over 4,000 posts on this forum. Reading even a small fraction of those can demonstrate that I am definitely not intolerant of individuality. I have been a consistent voice for viewing people as individuals and not as merely cogs in a machine or statistics on a page. Your attempt to paint millions of people with a very broad brush is exactly the kind of thing I have stood against in the name of individuality. Your views seem to ignore the concept that a person could freely live their life, make their own decisions, come to their own conclusions, and be led to believe in Christianity because of, NOT in spite of their experiences and free thought.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If you don't feel that that's who you are, explain why.
    I can only speak for myself, but quite frankly your arguments about the nature of Christianity are so off base I'm literally overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff I'd have to refute.

    And any attempts to articulate such would be met with the same-old misrepresentations of my views, nit-picking, lame one-liners, going around in circles, and just plain ol' missing the point altogether. Not only that, it'd be me arguing against 10 different people employing a variety of those tactics. It just gets exaseperating after a while.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, you have decided from your impressions of the "general pattern" of 10-15 people that the whole of Christianity is "a tool of oppression?"
    That, and experiences of several other people at their hands.

    You have indicated in other threads on this forum that you avoid social contact with people most of the time. I can't help but doubt that you have had real relationships with enough people to make these sorts of determinations about even those people, much less millions of people who may or may not share the same basic faith.
    You may choose to think that, of course.
    I have over 4,000 posts on this forum. Reading even a small fraction of those can demonstrate that I am definitely not intolerant of individuality. I have been a consistent voice for viewing people as individuals and not as merely cogs in a machine or statistics on a page. Your attempt to paint millions of people with a very broad brush is exactly the kind of thing I have stood against in the name of individuality. Your views seem to ignore the concept that a person could freely live their life, make their own decisions, come to their own conclusions, and be led to believe in Christianity because of, NOT in spite of their experiences and free thought.
    I somehow don't think it's the result of "free" thought. There are too many restrictive, authoritarian, and quotidian overtones in Christianity that make it unappealing to someone who thinks for themselves. I might be inclined to believe your point regarding people who become Christians in a culture dominated by an even more barbaric religion (e.g. cannibalism and human sacrifice, scalping). But in a culture that's totally permeated with the stuff? Please, you can't call that independent thought, you've likely been influenced by the stuff unconsciously, at best. Now, if you were anything but a mainstream Christian, like a Gnostic, Taoist, Zen Buddhist, Spinozist, Agnostic, etc. I'd believe you had really thought about the issue.

    Maybe your experiences are different, and that's fine for you. I suppose we each have to side with what we believe is right.

    My main reasons for opposing Christians, though, aren't that hard to understand.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I somehow don't think it's the result of "free" thought. There are too many restrictive, authoritarian, and quotidian overtones in Christianity that make it unappealing to someone who thinks for themselves. I might be inclined to believe your point regarding people who become Christians in a culture dominated by an even more barbaric religion (e.g. cannibalism and human sacrifice, scalping). But in a culture that's totally permeated with the stuff? Please, you can't call that independent thought, you've likely been influenced by the stuff unconsciously, at best. Now, if you were anything but a mainstream Christian, like a Gnostic, Taoist, Zen Buddhist, Spinozist, Agnostic, etc. I'd believe you had really thought about the issue.
    In all honesty I can't take such a position seriously. If somebody is a Christian, it's because they're brain-washed, but if they reject it - it's because they're thinking for themselves. :rolli:

    No doubt many people are Christian because they were raised so, but many others have freely chosen it too. After all, Free Will is a major element of Christian teaching - a fact that ironically many of its critics attack it for, supposedly in the name of "freedom". Although this is all assuming that the mode of acquisition for ones beliefs is really what ultimately matters.

  9. #49
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I somehow don't think it's the result of "free" thought. There are too many restrictive, authoritarian, and quotidian overtones in Christianity that make it unappealing to someone who thinks for themselves. I might be inclined to believe your point regarding people who become Christians in a culture dominated by an even more barbaric religion (e.g. cannibalism and human sacrifice, scalping). But in a culture that's totally permeated with the stuff? Please, you can't call that independent thought, you've likely been influenced by the stuff unconsciously, at best. Now, if you were anything but a mainstream Christian, like a Gnostic, Taoist, Zen Buddhist, Spinozist, Agnostic, etc. I'd believe you had really thought about the issue.
    I think the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew chapter 5, has plenty of appeal to someone who thinks for themselves. Of course I've been influenced by "the stuff." So have you. No one is free from influences. But there is tons of evidence to show that people can still make their own choices and come to their own conclusions, and those conclusions can sometimes be similar to those around them after consideration of plenty of other ideas, rather than as a result of blind adherence to the majority of influences.

    I'm glad that it doesn't matter whether you believe I have "really thought about the issue." Because I know myself that between the night at age 12 when I attempted suicide and my 19th birthday when I became a Christian, there was a LOT of "really thought about the issue" going on.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew chapter 5, has plenty of appeal to someone who thinks for themselves. Of course I've been influenced by "the stuff." So have you. No one is free from influences. But there is tons of evidence to show that people can still make their own choices and come to their own conclusions, and those conclusions can sometimes be similar to those around them after consideration of plenty of other ideas, rather than as a result of blind adherence to the majority of influences.
    There are things to appeal, of course. The ten commandments, several positive frameworks. But there's too much in the Bible that reinforces unjust ideas. I mean, think about it... you get no control. There's only one god, he created everyone, there's only one correct path, one law, and one correct destination in life, no one is unique or meaningful, disagree and you're damned. What kind of life is that? If I believed in that, I would never have tried to express myself or become my own person at all. I'd just avoid sin all the time and never know who I was, because I'd think I was no one except another carbon copy of billions of someone's simulation/toys, and there was nothing to know.
    I'm glad that it doesn't matter whether you believe I have "really thought about the issue." Because I know myself that between the night at age 12 when I attempted suicide and my 19th birthday when I became a Christian, there was a LOT of "really thought about the issue" going on.
    Well, ironically, Christianity is what made me want to kill myself or give up in the first place, around that very age. It was mentally escaping from Christianity that saved my life.

    If you feel Christianity saved you from a worse life, then you chose the right side for yourself. You are the kind of being that can benefit from it. Some of us are those who would be harmed by it.

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