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  1. #331
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I don't understand the desire to have everything explained right now, it is clear that both science and religion are too limited to explain everything right now, yet it is only religion that is arrogant enough to claim that it explains everything. Science is the prudent option, unknowns are just that unknown, filling the gaps with supernatural beings and boogie men is reckless.
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  2. #332
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Physicalism, materialism, etc., are metaphysical claims.

    How do you know there is any matter at all in "the universe as we know it"?
    That mindset, pardon my rudeness, is completely useless. We work with what we have. If you can't rely on observation and measurement, then you might as well just lapse into solipsism... which means I'm real and you're not, so who cares what you say? And this is completely useless, as it means there is no meaningful universe outside of your own psyche... and once again, this is useless as far as living is concerned.

    The claim that such things are metaphysical is simply an attempt to reconcile physical reality within a metaphysical framework. Does it say as much about the concepts themselves as much as it says about the person asserting such things? Yes, I can get very pomo if you want, and yes, that will make the entire argument even more useless. That's why I'm generally loath to do such things.

    Voltaire had it right - cultivate your garden.

  3. #333
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I don't understand the desire to have everything explained right now, it is clear that both science and religion are too limited to explain everything right now, yet it is only religion that is arrogant enough to claim that it explains everything. Science is the prudent option, unknowns are just that unknown, filling the gaps with supernatural beings and boogie men is reckless.
    Claiming to know ethical truths requires an appeal to a higher authority than ourselves which can only be rationalized by understanding the nature of this authority and his/her/its influence upon the world or universe.

  4. #334
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    Claiming to know ethical truths requires an appeal to a higher authority than ourselves which can only be rationalized by understanding the nature of this authority and his/her/its influence upon the world or universe.
    I'm not so sure about that. I'd say you could claim an ethical truth by appealing to the nature of our evolutionary selection - that altruism is "good" because that's what humans were selected for and ensures reproductive success.

  5. #335
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So if it's not possible, why even try? Of course, that's the death of the pursuit of knowledge.

    The only way the sum total of knowledge in the universe would be infinite would be if the universe itself were infinite. We know that not to be the case. Therefore, it is completely within the realm of physical possibility to understand every piece of data, a we know there is a finite quantity of energy and matter in the universe.

    The only way you descend into the metaphysical is if you propose that something exists outside the universe as we know it - and that's not what I'm talking about in the least bit.
    Our worldviews are irreconcilable. Good luck with the self-worship bit.

  6. #336
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Our worldviews are irreconcilable. Good luck with the self-worship bit.
    I'm sorry you feel that way. Good luck in your pursuit of truth.

  7. #337
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    onemoretime, this post was directed to you. Sorry for not specifying before:

    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    With as busy as I am I don't know when I'll get to dissecting what you said earlier, but your speculations are honestly kind of nauseating to me. With as many conflicts as Paul had with the Romans, confronting them and finally being beheaded by them, I find anyone hard pressed to defend the idea that he was trying to soften Judaism toward the Roman empire.

    I just wanted to address something you said to me which seemed to be brought up again - that Christianity was based on Mithraism. What evidence do you have that Mithraism looked anything like Christianity before Christianity arrived on the scene? I know about the movie Zeitgeist and all that but I've also heard that yes, these religions do look alot like Christianity but only because they adopted its themes and not vice versa, and that while they are older they didn't resemble it until after it arrived on the scene.

    I haven't looked it up myself yet, but I was wondering with your expansive knowledge on the subject if you knew anything about this or not, and if you can bring some harder evidence to the table regarding it. And not something loosely put together, either.
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  8. #338
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    onemoretime, this post was directed to you. Sorry for not specifying before:
    What's so nauseating about Paul's intentions being less than pure? It would make him like practically every other human of historical note both before and after. Speaking of Paul's conflicts with the Romans - given our knowledge of the early Roman Empire and how they managed their provinces, their treatment of foreign religions could be seen as salutary neglect, and this policy didn't really change until the Jewish-Roman War, which was seen as religious as the Romans didn't identify an ethnic difference among the Palestinians, just a religious/tribal one.

    Now, you have this Hellenized Jewish Roman citizen going around and causing unrest all across the eastern Empire. If you're the Roman governors, do you think he's doing it out of religious zeal (which could be the case), or do you think he's trying to start a political movement against Rome, being that he's wealthy and upper-class, and stands to gain much from an Eastern uprising against Roman control. This was a point where religious leaders weren't just executed for heresy - remember, Rome deferred to the local Jewish control on the Jesus question due to this policy. It made sense, because these sorts of actions, in a time when most religions were still tribal, could be very destabilizing.

    So that raises a lot of questions - one, what did Peter and Paul do that was so alarming to the Romans that they felt was threatening enough to warrant arrest and execution, especially given the Roman disinclination to persecute religious leaders? Was it simply the context of the burgeoning Jewish-Roman Wars, and they just wanted to put down sources of unrest? Even if it was that, why would they do this, given that they specifically ignored religious leaders unless they became political? As you can see, it raises a lot of questions.

    So there's my base from which I speculate, and yes, I fully admit it's mostly speculation. That being said, we don't have enough information from the primary sources, nor is the dogma trustworthy enough to form a fully historical picture of the era - since this was a provincial backwater not worth much accounting by Roman and Greek scholars.

    Mithraism - demigod born of miraculous means in mid-December spreads wisdom and understanding through revelation of mysteries (which characterized early Christianity, and still informs much of Catholicism and Orthodoxy - that intercession is required because of the mysterious nature of God's will). Order was extremely hierarchical, with seven ranks - much like both older strands of Christianity (C: parishioner, deacon, priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, pope; O: parishioner, deacon, priest, bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, Christ). Emphasized the liberation from temporal authority through the revelation of mystery (much as the Eucharist liberates the believer from sin through its mystery of transubstantiation). Early polemicists (such as Justin) railed on Mithraism as being a perversion of Christianity, though it completely lacks any Jewish elements. Mithra died for three days and was reborn in early Spring (which many speculate comes from the sun's death for the three days surrounding the winter solstice, the day's lengthening beginning on Dec. 25, and it's victorious rebirth at the vernal equinox as the ruler of the night.)

    Yes, most of that was pulled off of Wiki, but I'm too lazy to go find the primary sources right now.

  9. #339
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Irrelevant. You still have a null hypothesis - "there is no way of knowing one way or another whether there is a god, so its existence or non-existence has no bearing on understanding the situation". As such, the concept of a deity is entirely useless and unimportant to understanding the world.
    You don't have a Null Hypothesis unless you can quantify the degree of certainty that you can reject the hypothesis and therefore not reject the null hypothesis. You can't actually accept the null hypothesis if I recall correctly.

    Rev. Thomas Bayes tried to prove or disprove the existence of god with statistics. He did not manage to do that but he did manage to invent/discover Bayes' Theorem.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why are you so sure that at some point, we won't be able to explain all natural phenomena? Why are you willing to give up so easy?
    I said someday we might be able to explain the unknown. But there is a bigger chance the earth will get blown away by asteroid 1950 DA in 2880. Maximum probability of impact depending on the rotation of the asteroid is 0.33%.

    Think we can move to Mars in 800 years?

  10. #340
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    You don't have a Null Hypothesis unless you can quantify the degree of certainty that you can reject the hypothesis and therefore accept the hypothesis.

    Rev. Thomas Bayes tried to prove or disprove the existence of god with statistics. He did not manage to do that but he did manage to invent/discover Bayes' Theorem.
    So religion DOES have a purpose!

    I said someday we might be able to explain the unknown. But there is a bigger chance the earth will get blown away by asteroid 1950 DA in 2880. Maximum probability of impact depending on the rotation of the asteroid is 0.33%.

    Think we can move to Mars in 800 years?
    I don't see why not - did anyone have any clue of what humans would currently be capable of in 1209? It's possible with current technology - really expensive and really risky, but possible.

    I guess I can't help but be optimistic about the pursuit and increase of human knowledge. Out of 250,000 years of our existence, we did the exact same thing for 243,000 of them. All of a sudden, a really big change happens, and over the next 7,000 years, the collection of human knowledge grows exponentially. 1.8% of human history is recorded, and look at all that has happened in that time!

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