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  1. #301
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    I have heard a Christian religious scholar essentially admit the miracles are probably just stories.
    The degree of politicization that has happened within the debate about Christian historicity nowadays (which is reflected even in the microcosm of this thread) makes it hard to take the word of a Christian scholar on either side of the fence.

    I'm going to do some more reading, but I've recently heard the idea that fundamentalism is a reaction to modernity and that actually before 150 years or less, the idea of the "taking the Bible literally" was a viewpoint few people held. I think we're so immersed in and influenced by the last 50-100 years of Western culture that it's easy to assume the beliefs held now were the ones that were always held for centuries... and then get defended as such when it's actually a fairly new arrival. I certainly know the propensity for conservative culture to circle the wagons, protect the boundaries, and not allow new information inside the borders contributes to this sense that things have always been this way and will continue to be; I found it an eye-opener to get outside of my own microcosm and realize the diversity in thought and belief even within one particular religion over time. it puts everything in context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Heh, Edgar has just demonstrated that a straw man argument becomes logical as long as you attach a picture to it.
    It wasn't much of an argument, merely a mirror in which we can better see the people around it by how they react to it. (At least I hope that was his point.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ahh yes the usual shtick: if you dislike something about Christianity, blame St. Paul.
    Poor Paul. All that work, all that abuse at the hands of the Romans, and now he's become everyone's whipping boy... again.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #302
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm not saying that this event didn't have an effect, but on the other hand I think it's a bit naive to think that the beginning and end of all of Christianity is stated in The Da Vinci Code. Christianity has had a good 16-17 centuries since Constantine. The Protestant bible has 66 books in it. The Catholic bible has a few more, and certain orthodox faiths have a couple extra books (depending on which one you are talking about). However if you take the intersection of all these canons you get the same 66 books that are in the Protestant bible.
    I think it would be more interesting to follow the evolution of memes over long periods of time within cultures.

    Right now, this sort of thinking might sound reasonable, and it's too close to home because some of us are immersed in it. I think the telling point would be to track some DIFFERENT item over a long period of time and note how it changes and develops and evolves... all while the bulk of the people are trying to interact authentically with it (plus the few malevolent bad apples that seek to actually twist and manipulate it to their own ends).

    You are claiming this process justifies that the current Bible all be taken authentically, as you believe it to be. If we find other items where the later result doesn't mesh with the starting point, even while the process itself was natural and just involved innocent transmission, then it sort of shoots that assumption in the foot. I don't even think some of us have really bothered to consider HOW long 300-400 years is. The United States has not even been in existence for 250 and the country is very different in attitude and outlook and understanding and approach. I mean, even the political parties that we know today under have changed roles a number of times, even when their names were the same.... but we still read our modern context back into things.

    So from this we can conclude a couple of things. 1) People are not just blindly following the will of Constantine. The canon has been examined by various faiths and that is why they differ a bit depending on which part of Christianity you are referring to.
    No, Constantine just consolidated and trimmed the hedge, so to speak -- formalizing what had grown to be an informal canon. But of course, the canon had evolved and developed by then into what got codified... so what was the natural selection process earlier like? (I find it ironic, btw, to consider that social natural selection is what produced the current canonical meme.)

    We can't just assume that because the end result was just codifying much of what was accepted by that time that the earlier process was kosher and fair. There was a ruthless competition of ideas, most of which few (if any of us) can ever learn or detail.


    2) Even with these differences the similarities far outweigh the differences. The scripture has been scrutinized by Christians over the ages, and they've decided they like what's in there and want to keep it.
    Vague appeal to unknown experts = lots of assumptions. Lots of sincere people have studied it and the current Bible exists the way it does because people agree... but you know as well as I do (being members of a personality theory site) that everyone has a different definition for what "credibility" is and how much that determines what survives to reach the end of the pipeline. You'll note which sorts of people typically end up on which sides of the argument... and where that doesn't happen, you'll note a particular background of training/immersion as children in the POV they've been holding.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #303
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm going to do some more reading, but I've recently heard the idea that fundamentalism is a reaction to modernity and that actually before 150 years or less, the idea of the "taking the Bible literally" was a viewpoint few people held.
    More than a few times I've pointed out that Christianity grew out of the allegorical traditions of Hellenic Judaism.

    I think it would be more interesting to follow the evolution of memes over long periods of time within cultures.
    All things change and develop. The question is on what basis do they change and develop. Not all forms of change and development are equal.

  4. #304
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The degree of politicization that has happened within the debate about Christian historicity nowadays (which is reflected even in the microcosm of this thread) makes it hard to take the word of a Christian scholar on either side of the fence.

    I'm going to do some more reading, but I've recently heard the idea that fundamentalism is a reaction to modernity and that actually before 150 years or less, the idea of the "taking the Bible literally" was a viewpoint few people held. I think we're so immersed in and influenced by the last 50-100 years of Western culture that it's easy to assume the beliefs held now were the ones that were always held for centuries... and then get defended as such when it's actually a fairly new arrival. I certainly know the propensity for conservative culture to circle the wagons, protect the boundaries, and not allow new information inside the borders contributes to this sense that things have always been this way and will continue to be; I found it an eye-opener to get outside of my own microcosm and realize the diversity in thought and belief even within one particular religion over time. it puts everything in context.
    I would think that the Catholics and Reformers all along took the Bible literally, overall (Hence, the persecution of astronomers for saying the world was round, or not at the center fof the universe). Doctrines like the Virgin Birth, Flood, and all the miracles were generally held literally.

    Fundamentalism arose over the strictly literal interpretations of Genesis (young earth) and perhaps also Revelation, which may not have always been taken literally like the other doctrines (especially not the eschatological positions). At least, those were the distinctive doctrines they emphasized. And then, with the modernists questioning those other "essential" doctrines, that was when fundamentalists arose and said enough was enough.

    The question I've been pondering, as far as eschatology, was how literal it was taken back among the original audience. Especially all the "new world"/"destruction" language, which was supposed to be something occuring "soon". Just on that one point, the entire of understanding of everything else in the Biblefor the centuries afterwards, possibly changes.
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  5. #305
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    More than a few times I've pointed out that Christianity grew out of the allegorical traditions of Hellenic Judaism.
    Good, thank you.

    All things change and develop. The question is on what basis do they change and develop. Not all forms of change and development are equal.
    Well, yes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I would think that the Catholics and Reformers all along took the Bible literally, overall (Hence, the persecution of astronomers for saying the world was round, or not at the center fof the universe). Doctrines like the Virgin Birth, Flood, and all the miracles were generally held literally.
    You're wrong on all accounts. Catholicism has never upheld a literalist interpretation of scriptures, nor did it persecute astronomers for saying the world is round. That notion was invented out of thin air in the 1830s.

  7. #307
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You're wrong on all accounts. Catholicism has never upheld a literalist interpretation of scriptures, nor did it persecute astronomers for saying the world is round. That notion was invented out of thin air in the 1830s.
    So Galileo stayed in his house because he liked it and not because he was under a house arrest?
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #308
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    So Galileo stayed in his house because he liked it and not because he was under a house arrest?
    Regardless of his scientific beliefs, is it true that Galileo pretty much instigated the whole conflict in a way that demanded his imprisonment, so that his ideas would get more notoriety? (Yes, I'm too lazy to look it up, but maybe someone here has heard this before.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Regardless of his scientific beliefs, is it true that Galileo pretty much instigated the whole conflict in a way that demanded his imprisonment, so that his ideas would get more notoriety? (Yes, I'm too lazy to look it up, but maybe someone here has heard this before.)
    I dealt with the issue here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post618660

  10. #310
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why are you so sure that at some point, we won't be able to explain all natural phenomena?
    Maybe because attaining such knowledge would be utterly unprecedented?

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