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  1. #271
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ahh yes the usual shtick: if you dislike something about Christianity, blame St. Paul.
    Well, it is his religion, after all. Might as well own up to it.

  2. #272
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Well, it is his religion, after all. Might as well own up to it.
    No it's the religion of Jesus.

  3. #273
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No it's the religion of Jesus.
    No, Jesus is the central figure. That would be like calling Islam "the religion of Allah". It's still Muhammad's creation - just as Christianity was mostly formed from Paul's efforts.

    Without Paul, Christianity just stays as a Jewish mystery sect, like most of the Apostles wanted it in the first place (according to the Gospels). Not only that, but it was through the epistles that most initial doctrine was created (with the very obvious exception of Timothy), rather than anything Jesus said (which mostly consisted of "love God", "love each other", "I am the salvation of mankind and the Jewish people").

    The whole "idolators are going to hell, gays are going to hell, people who have sex outside of marriage are going to hell, Jews who don't accept Jesus are responsible for his murder, women should be subservient to men as long as their husbands love them (oh yeah, don't wear hats to church), Jewish laws still apply except for the dietary restrictions, thinking I know more about Jesus than someone who putatively walked with him (Peter), etc." all were Paul's innovations. Hell, he took what was essentially a love cult, and injected his own sexual and misogynist complexes into hard doctrine - that enough is reason to seriously question his credibility. That being said, Christianity after Nicaea was his religion - Jesus never had any inclination of using the Jewish scriptures as canonical, as most of his work as indicated in the Gospels was to emphasize how a textualist interpretation of the Jewish scriptures was incredibly counter-productive.

  4. #274
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    No, Jesus is the central figure.
    Alrighty then, end of discussion.

  5. #275
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Alrighty then, end of discussion.
    Disappointing.

  6. #276
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    You said it yourself, Jesus is the central figure of Christianity - ergo it's the faith of Jesus.

    The notion of St. Paul corrupting Christianity for this or that reason has been repeated ad nauseum in one form or another across several generations. Sorry, I've heard this all before and I'm not wasting my time on it.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You said it yourself, Jesus is the central figure of Christianity - ergo it's the faith of Jesus.

    The notion of St. Paul corrupting Christianity for this or that reason has been repeated ad nauseum in one form or another across several generations. Sorry, I've heard this all before and I'm not wasting my time on it.
    Just because an idea is rather persistent, doesn't mean it's not true (just like it doesn't mean it is true).

    The faith of Jesus was Judaism. At the most blatant, he claimed a special Gnostic connection with God (calling himself the Son of Man while calling his followers the Children of God). It was Paul's innovation to ascribe some sort of divinity on him - as we know the epistles were written well before the Gospels (40-60 AD vs 70-200 AD).

    Personally, I think the idea that Paul and Peter spread a Judaized version of the Mithraic cult and cult of Sol Invictus in order to counter the increasing radicalism and anti-Roman impulses within the Judaean population (combining the Roman soldiers' religion with Judaism) makes sense in the context, given their respective backgrounds (Paul as a well-known Hellenized Jew with Roman citizenship, indicating his social class, and Peter's knowledge of Greek which belies his supposed humble background). They later split on either a political difference (Peter wanting to keep the movement within the Jews, Paul wanting to go worldwide), or over an honest dispute regarding doctrine. However, I am not going to argue from this perspective, and just use the assumption that the historical Jesus existed.

    Jesus is the central figure. However, he did not create the religion, as he did not provide most of the associated doctrine. Paul and Peter did, with a heavy emphasis on Paul. Once again, saying Jesus created Christianity would be like saying Allah created Islam. Both are the key central figures of both religions, but it's obvious that Muhammad created/related (depending on your religious views) Islam. Much in the same way, Paul (with Peter's assistance) created the majority of Christian common doctrine.

  8. #278
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Just because an idea is rather persistent, doesn't mean it's not true (just like it doesn't mean it is true).
    Maybe not per se, but when you look more closely at many of these arguments it often exposes the lack of ones real understanding of what they're talking about - not least of which because it involves selective readings of scriptures, nitpicking, hair-splitting, fact twisting, and most importantly random speculation. I have no time nor patience for such sophistry.

    As I said, this has been done to death before by so many people, often for self-serving ends. A good example would be the Nazi claim of Jesus being a pure Aryan figure whose teachings were corrupted by the sneaky Jew St. Paul. Everybody has their own version.

    So yeah, I've heard this all before.
    Last edited by Sniffles; 07-23-2009 at 12:54 PM.

  9. #279
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Just letting you know I'm going to try to get back to this. Kinda busy right now and I've been sleeping alot.
    -stellar renegade
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  10. #280
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Maybe not per se, but when you look more closely at many of these arguments it often exposes the lack of ones real understanding of what they're talking about - not least of which because it involves selective readings of scriptures, nitpicking, hair-splitting, fact twisting, and most importantly random speculation. I have no time nor patience for such sophistry.

    As I said, this has been done to death before by so many people, often for self-serving ends. A good example would be the Nazi claim of Jesus being a pure Aryan figure whose teachings were corrupted by the sneaky Jew St. Paul. Everybody has their own version.

    So yeah, I've heard this all before.
    Just because an idea has been promoted by maligned groups doesn't mean the idea is bad. The Nazis believed in heavy infrastructure investment - does that mean we let our roads crumble?

    I'm not saying Paul invented Christianity as we know it as a means to an end. I'm saying it because that's what the evidence suggests.

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