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  1. #211
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taoistmofo View Post

    My biggest problem with Christianity is its complete disregard for right and wrong. The good that one has done is irrelevant when it comes to going to heaven. I was having a discussion with my son on about Christianity and he asked me what happened to Buddha according to Christianity and I told him that he was removed from the eyes of God and not allowed in their heaven. He asked me why since he was such a peaceful person and didnít harm anyone. I told him it didnít matter how compassionate of a person he was. That doesnít matter in Christianity. He didnít accept Jesus as his savior so he was punished. He looked at me in shock. The same look I gave my minister when I asked the same question about His Holiness the Dali Lama. Through out all the scripture you want. Promise me eternal life. Itís all meaningless.

    Justify to me that itís okay to condemn a person for not having the same set of beliefs as you do. Justify to me that Gandhi deserved to be dealt with in the same manner as Hitler in the eyes of God. This is where I pick apart Christianity. It refuses to believe any other religion should be allowed to be practiced to point of punishment. Even those that devote their life to helping others fall to the same fate as those that devote their lives to destroying it. To me, this the biggest issue of Christianity.
    Bearing in mind that he was writing during a time of great intolerance of other faiths, and expressing views pretty much in concordance with orthodox theology of the time, you might be interested to see the view Dante took of this in his Divine Comedy. It at any rate seems to challenge the simplistic but widespread view that literal belief in Christ is necessary for salvation even from an exclusive Christian perspective; and provides an argument for why those who are virtuous in human terms may be treated differently to both sinners and true believers.

    I was looking for a good online reference then found this convenient synopsis and commentary, which addresses the whole issue in a page or two - hopefully it's more digestible than the whole three books of the original at any rate! The Destiny of a Virtuous Pagan
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  2. #212
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    What I never understood about Christianity is this:

    If I were to say that between the earth and the moon there was a small Chinese store, and provided that this store is so small that you will never be able to see it, but nonetheless it controls your life and and it created everything that you see and more, you would tell me that I'm insane.
    And you would be right.
    BUT if you read the same story in a book written thousands of years ago and read in Church every sunday, then not only I am right, but I can also declare that your beliefs are invalid because they're different.

    That is nonsense.

    By the way, from my experience I can tell that most of the people claim they have faith just to hide their intellectual laziness.
    "Let's obey to a God whose rules makes no sense at all just because I'm too lazy to look for real answers, come on! It's gonna be fun."
    Pathetic.
    Oisive jeunesse
    A tout asservie,
    Par dťlicatesse
    J'ai perdu ma vie.
    Ah ! Que le temps vienne
    Oý les coeurs s'ťprennent.

  3. #213
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gioolia View Post
    If I were to say that between the earth and the moon there was a small Chinese store, and provided that this store is so small that you will never be able to see it, but nonetheless it controls your life and and it created everything that you see and more, you would tell me that I'm insane.
    And you would be right.
    *nods*

    BUT if you read the same story in a book written thousands of years ago and read in Church every sunday, then not only I am right, but I can also declare that your beliefs are invalid because they're different.

    That is nonsense.
    *nods again*

    By the way, from my experience I can tell that most of the people claim they have faith just to hide their intellectual laziness.
    *Pot, kettle, anyone?*

    "Let's make criticisms which make no sense at all just because I'm too lazy to look for real answers, come on! It's gonna be fun."
    Fixed

    Pathetic.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  4. #214
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    1) The answer to this is tied up with the answer to b. According to Christian thesim, the existence of God is clear such that those who don't believe are without excuse. If there weren't enough evidence to show that God existed, then the unbeliever would have an excuse. If there were enough evidence, but it was hard to know, then the unbeliever would have an excuse. The claim is that God's existence is so clear that the only way to avoid seeing it is either to be wholly, culpably negligent in belief formation or, if one has done any rigorous examination of his beliefs, to deny the basic distinctions that make thought possible; in order to fail to know God, one must commit intellectual suicide, and so the spiritually dead person will not be in a condition to recognize any truth: not that God exists, the reality of his condition, or that he needs to change.
    It's been a while but that's a good answer, and the first I've heard of it's kind. I was not aware that christianity believed this, however it does somewhat contradict with the common idea of faith.

    It's still hard to shake away the idea if God's existance was so obvious, then there is no need for people to really have much faith at all. But reality dictates otherwise...

  5. #215
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Christianity is a belief that is consistent within itself, but is not scientifically verifiable and falsifiable. There's no way to disprove any aspect. This is true for any divine belief.

    So,
    1. It doesn't need to be picked apart.
    2. Attempting to do so would be futile anyhow.
    3. What one can do is to simply refuse it, as with any other non-falsifiable idea.
    Not really.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gioolia View Post
    By the way, from my experience I can tell that most of the people claim they have faith just to hide their intellectual laziness.
    "Let's obey to a God whose rules makes no sense at all just because I'm too lazy to look for real answers, come on! It's gonna be fun."
    Pathetic.
    The only problem with such an argument is that it fails to tell the whole story. Christianity has a very rich intellectual heritage which continues to this very day. Arguably one of the greatest living philosophers today, Alasdair MacIntyre, is a Catholic actually.

    St. Anselm of Centerbury famous stated "I believe so that I may understand." This means that faith is merely the first step in one seeking to comprehend the world better. Reason is a gift from God so that we may better understand his nature and his works. So reason and faith are not necessarily enemies; but Christianity is ultimately a matter of faith.

    That was the major point behind Tertullian supposedly stating: "I believe because it's absurd." This is often wrongly misinterpreted to protray him and Christianity in general as irrational in nature. That's simply not so. The criteria for extraordinary claims can only apply to certain limited circumstances - one is not simply free to believe any bullshit they please.

    You see this basic mentality in play in regards to issues of miracles. Miracles by their very nature are unusual events. This is contrasted by the view of Occasionalism, which states that everything that occurs is simply the will of God. Contrary to popular view, this has not been upheld much within Christian philosophy - in fact it's more often found within Islam. However, perhaps it should be mentioned that the Islamic philosopher Averroes contended that faith and reason(philosophy) were two means to the same end - ie the truth.

    One of the great things about Christianity is that it has room for those seeking intellectual understanding and those of more simple faith. So this notion of religion merely being for the intellectually lazy is simply not correct. If anything, religious philosophers have presented some of the most profound insights ever.

  7. #217
    Senior Member Argus's Avatar
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    Nicely done, Peguy.

  8. #218
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    Question How do you know....

    God is suddenly going to give a shit about you AFTER YOU DIE? Why would an all-powerful Deity need to wait before he gives a shit. If you have a life indicating he gives a shit about you NOW, good for you, but that is not the case for all of us, so why should we believe he'll suddenly give a shit when we croak? Also, I'll bet you cannot find one bible verse about how to be "saved" that is not contradicted elsewhere. Even the New Testament is at odds with itself about we are supposed to be saved by God from, well, his own bad temper. There are many places that say we will be judged by our works, not faith. So which is it?

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltar View Post
    God is suddenly going to give a shit about you AFTER YOU DIE? Why would an all-powerful Deity need to wait before he gives a shit. If you have a life indicating he gives a shit about you NOW, good for you, but that is not the case for all of us, so why should we believe he'll suddenly give a shit when we croak? Also, I'll bet you cannot find one bible verse about how to be "saved" that is not contradicted elsewhere. Even the New Testament is at odds with itself about we are supposed to be saved by God from, well, his own bad temper. There are many places that say we will be judged by our works, not faith. So which is it?
    Here is the thing Baltar. Judge not that ye be not judged, but if you do judge, be fair. And go beyond being fair and be benevolent, for however you choose to see things is totally up to you.

  10. #220
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm glad this thread hasn't been done before.

    Buford: Whadayawanna do today, Frank?
    Frank: I dunno, Buford, shoot beers cans off that fence?
    Buford: But that's what we do EVERY day, Frank!
    Frank: But what the heck else are we gonna do with all the beer cans, Buford?
    Buford: You're right, good buddy, load 'em up!



    To get right to the point, without even needing to focus on content:

    You're presenting a self-contained idea or a theology.
    There's no way to authenticate said theology, nor is it "self-evident."
    Hence, you either choose to believe it as an accurate depiction of the world or you don't -- a discussion of the content is irrelevant to that bottom-line point.
    Word.

    Can we canonize this post, sticking it to a bulletin that every would-be religion discussor has to read before they post?

    Damn. *flicks this invitation to criticizing Christianity in with the shoebox full of other invites of this sort that she's received in the last six months, then dumps it in the garbage--but keeps the box*

    Although, in your favor, thread-starter, I liked your description of Christianity. It flowed well, and it refreshed my memory on a lot of stuff I learned in eight years of Catholic grade school, so I'd say it was probably pretty complete.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

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