User Tag List

First 10181920212230 Last

Results 191 to 200 of 352

  1. #191
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    I'm sorry, but this argument is really weak. Just because someone creates something, and somebody else uses it for a purpose that most would consider evil, does not make the original creator responsible for how it is used. Most things made, even those attributed to God, can be used for good or bad purposes, but it doesn't mean the creator intended for them to be used that way.

    A guy can make a pen for writing. If someone comes by and uses a pen to stab someone in the eye, it's not the pen-makers fault or cause.

    One could say that God created fire. Fire can be used to keep someone warm, cook his food, melt and purify metal, etc...to a thousand uses. But if a fire is used by someone to burn down a family in their home, it's God's fault?

    God did not create nuclear weapons. He may have created the physical processes that make nuclear fission/fusion possible. But just because some men can make use of those processes for nefarious purposes does not make God responsible. The 'destructive' nuclear forces also benefit man. Without them, the sun would not burn and life would not exist on earth. Man, even though usually corrupt and destructive, has even made use of nuclear power to provide energy for many of it's citizens, and thats usually considered a good thing.
    I am afraid that it is your argument that is weak.

    Which is because we are talking about God and not about another human being. God is omnipresent and all knowing. He/she/it knew exactly what will happen if he creates reality like ours.
    Especially since he could have created anything he wanted.

  2. #192
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Does the one she stole from agree with your perspective? We each see with limited and different perspectives. And, that perspective often revolves around self. God is onmiscient and sees it all, from every person, every aspect, every perspective, along with every consequence of every decision - everything.

    God does give the knowledge; He gives the knowledge and skill to heal, but that knowledge and skill can be used to kill as well - that is a result of a person or persons using their free will to make a decision and the consequence of that decision. Can God intervene? Yes. Will He? If it serves His purpose, yes. If we don't have the whole picture, or all knowledge as He does, how can we properly judge Him or His decisions?...and, should the creation judge the creator?

    With regard to death, again, different perspectives. A Christian is called to die to self while living on earth. That means, not my way, not my will, this is no longer my life, but Christ's to use for His purposes. And, a Christian knows that there is much, much better things waiting once physical life has ended, so death is nothing to fear; there are much better things to look forward to.
    Does this means that if your god orders you to wipe out a village that this a right thing to do ?

  3. #193
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am afraid that it is your argument that is weak.

    Which is because we are talking about God and not about another human being. God is omnipresent and all knowing. He/she/it knew exactly what will happen if he creates reality like ours.
    Especially since he could have created anything he wanted.
    What exactly is the problem with allowing people to do what they want? Would you have prefered a robot like community where nobody could choose what they want?

  4. #194
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yes, now we're getting to the crux of what I'm trying to say (which, you're not getting...we are missing each other, it seems).

    They're ALL man-made ideologies. Hence, it can be used as a vehicle for good and bad, because if it was by divine intervention, it would be perfection in truth. It would not be culturally applicable (the bible mentions slavery and how to treat them, all apostles were men, the big women figures, were the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalena...and, very much so tied to the time's significance of women, tied predominately to their sexuality). It would surpass any of these cultural limitations of the time to be relevant throughout...and not for us to rely on debates of interpretive differences during modern times. As such, we can only use ONE or the OTHER as an argument.

    (1) X ideology allows for interpretation. As such, certain people within the ideology tainted it - towards good, towards bad.

    Or

    (2) X is an ideology that has good merits and bad merits.


    If (1) and we are speaking of Christianity, it really calls into question this notion of God's words/divine intervention, unless we allow god to be less than perfect. As such, he/she/it was short-sighted enough to write only to the culture at the time, allow for ambiguity, etc, etc.

    If (2) then god is not goodness. God is good and bad.

    We can't use the ideology as an indisputable truth, and excuse the bad instances as those that went astray and the good as those that TRULY understood it. This is the bias I speak of. Use the same evaluating scale for the good and the bad. Or don't use the scale at all as a gold standard.
    Okay - you and I agree, somewhat. However, I do see the teachings of Jesus as divine intervention, and of course in matters of faith and belief this is inarguable because naturally we will never come to an agreement because of the nature of the argument.

    But I do agree that the way that the Bible has been abused and interpreted as a whole is all too human. It appears to me that some people, instead of viewing the Bible as a whole get stuck on very early chapters like Leviticus, use old Jewish laws to harrass other people, and totally miss out on all of the stuff in the New Testament about love being the law, and love thy neighbor, and forgive, and do not judge lest ye be judged, and no man is capable of fulfilling the law which is why forgiveness is necessary. There is also "neither Jew nor Greek" which is a great statement against any sort of racism, nationalism, etc. The Bible is full of remarkably egalitarian, "modern" ideas within the teachings of Jesus. I think it is important to look back on the Old Testament with the New Testament firmly in mind so it can be interpreted correctly as a history of how human beings are all flawed. The reason why many "men of God" sometimes did bad things in the Old Testament is not to justify those bad things, but simply to prove that even spiritual people have a selfish, imperfect human nature.

    Of course, like I said before, I know you aren't going to agree with me in my beliefs, but I did feel it necessary to explain a little more fully.

  5. #195
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The Bible is full of remarkably egalitarian, "modern" ideas within the teachings of Jesus.
    Egalitarian certainly when understood in a metaphysical sense, but the "modern" perversion of these teachings is to claim that this somehow applies in the earthly realm. That simply is not so. It should be noted that the term hierarchy was actually coined by the Christian writer Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, when talking about the ordering of Angels.

    The connection between Christianity and worldly egalitarianism probably dates to the heretical teachings of the renegade Medieval monk Joachim of Fiore; who taught that the coming "Age of the Holy Spirit" would be one of perfect equality between all humans, without churches and other institutions.

  6. #196
    Member Ojian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Which is because we are talking about God and not about another human being. God is omnipresent and all knowing. He/she/it knew exactly what will happen if he creates reality like ours.
    Especially since he could have created anything he wanted.
    I wouldnt agree with that assessment, though it may go contrary to the commonly held 'Christian' beliefs. But it depends on what you mean by "omnipresent" and "all knowing".

    If God is "all knowing" in that he was fully aware of every detail of the future before he created anything, then yes, he would be responsible for everything that has happened, both good and bad. But that would also mean there is no such thing as free will. Everything that exists is no more than a 'robot' performing actions that they were programmed to do.

    But I don't hold to that view, nor do I think is it Biblically supported. If as you say "he could have created anything he wanted", would not that include him being able to create beings with free will? If so, then despite God having the ability to look into the future, he could choose not to exercise that ability to its fullest extent and allow free will creatures to actually choose their own course. And if men do have free will, then they would be responsible for what they do and create.

  7. #197
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    152

    Default

    Doesn't the idea of Supreme being that governs all kinda of invalidate the whole point of free will? I mean, its not really free will, since He knows what you will do before hand. And if God intervenes in human affairs, thus changing the course of events, wouldn't he be aware of all the possible consequences of any action he makes?

    I'm just saying that Free will doesn't really mesh well with the "God's plan/design" thing, since we can only make the decisions he designed or wanted us to make.

  8. #198
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Christianity is the religion of paradoxes.

  9. #199
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Argus2968 View Post
    Christianity:
    There is one God and He is the maker of heaven and earth and He made us in His image and likeness, male and female with dignity, value, worth, and purpose. He made us to worship. and we chose to sin against Him, to rebel against Him, to disobey Him. As a result we are separated from God and we live under the foolish myth that to some degree we are each our own “god” declaring right and wrong, living our own life, by our own standards. And that God loving came into human history as the man Jesus Christ - fully God and fully man - born of a virgin, and He lived a life without sin though He was tempted in every way as we are. And He went to the cross and there He substituted himself. Our first parents (Adam & Eve) in the garden substituted themselves for god and at the cross Jesus reversed that substitution and substituted himself for sinners. When Jesus went to the cross, He took willingly upon Him the sin of those who would come to trust in Him. That means me, as a sinner, Jesus went to the cross and took upon Himself all my sin, past, present, and future. Jesus Christ, God who was a man, died in my place, for my sins, paying my debt to God and purchasing my salvation. Jesus' dead body was then laid in a tomb and for three days he was buried. On the third day, a Sunday, which is why we worship on that day, Jesus rose in victory over Satan, sin, death, demons and hell. And He commissioned us with the Holy Spirit to be missionaries telling this amazingly good news, that there is a God who passionately, lovingly, continually, relentlessly, pursues us. And Jesus ascended into heaven and today He is alive and well and He is seated on a throne and He is ruling and reigning over all nations, cultures, philosophies, races, and periods of time. He is ruling over moderns and post-moderns, women and men, those who are living and those who are dead, those who have been born and those who will be born and He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He is ruling and reigning over all people commanding anyone everywhere to repent of everything, and He is coming again to judge the living and the dead and those who trust in Him will enjoy an eternity in His kingdom of heaven forever and those who do not will suffer apart from him in the conscious, eternal torments of hell.



    What are your objections and reasons for objecting Christianity? What do you believe to be true? Do you believe in truth? Do you believe in a god? Do you believe in the God presented above? What about the gospel is so offensive?

    If you feel that I completely missed some major piece of Christianity please explain where and how it is important as so far as "salvation" goes.

    Need one more proof than to look at the vast amount of creation which man could not create himself?

    Religion is what man thinks of God. It is a circuitous thinking, self-contained, and is not created by God. What does that get one? Somewhere shy of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but not quite a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is an artificial comfort, one which is selfish.

    It is a waste of time and a deflection from focus on fulfillment.

  10. #200
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    I wouldnt agree with that assessment, though it may go contrary to the commonly held 'Christian' beliefs. But it depends on what you mean by "omnipresent" and "all knowing".

    If God is "all knowing" in that he was fully aware of every detail of the future before he created anything, then yes, he would be responsible for everything that has happened, both good and bad. But that would also mean there is no such thing as free will. Everything that exists is no more than a 'robot' performing actions that they were programmed to do.

    But I don't hold to that view, nor do I think is it Biblically supported. If as you say "he could have created anything he wanted", would not that include him being able to create beings with free will? If so, then despite God having the ability to look into the future, he could choose not to exercise that ability to its fullest extent and allow free will creatures to actually choose their own course. And if men do have free will, then they would be responsible for what they do and create.
    An alternative idea is that God is not binded by time, and sees the future past and present as one point. He is present at every moment, therefore knows all what will occur and can occur in the future.

    A christian friend gave me the example: We know what we did in the past as a child, but does that mean we did not have free will then?

Similar Threads

  1. Quotes to Motivate You to *Get To Work*
    By Usehername in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 09-21-2014, 12:36 PM
  2. If You Had to Pick, What Are Your Top Two Needs Out of This List?
    By Evolving Transparency in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 04-21-2014, 04:41 PM
  3. Replies: 43
    Last Post: 05-28-2010, 03:22 PM
  4. [NT] NTs, if you had to pick...
    By Zarathustra in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 03-29-2010, 02:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO