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  1. #171
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You got it right.

    But that is not all.
    On wife that is stealing from stores and billions of dead people and destroyed biosphere are not exactly the same thing.

    I simply don't inderstand why would God create a tool for wiping of milions and millions of devoted christians.

    In the case that God is behind this I must rise a question " Does he really love us as he/she/it claims? " (In the case that God exists in the first place.)
    Something to consider...how do you know that He has not already stopped nuclear war multiple times?
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You got it right.

    But that is not all.
    On wife that is stealing from stores and billions of dead people and destroyed biosphere are not exactly the same thing.

    I simply don't inderstand why would God create a tool for wiping of milions and millions of devoted christians.

    In the case that God is behind this I must rise a question " Does he really love us as he/she/it claims? " (In the case that God exists in the first place.)
    That's essentially the same question as
    "Why does God allow suffering to occur" which has been addressed...

  3. #173
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Something to consider...how do you know that He has not already stopped nuclear war multiple times?
    Nice try. It's not our place to show that he hasn't, it's yours to show that he has (and please stop capitalizing "he," it's annoying). You can't demand proof of a negative. If you can't show something to be true, it's automatically assumed to be false.

    You don't understand logic at all, do you? LOL, I guess this is Christian 'thinking'.

  4. #174
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    If "he" can limit 'free' will, is it truly free will?
    There are two wills - free will and limited free will. God allows free will to choose a relationship with Him or not. He offers limited free will depending on His purposes after that (christian or not) because He is sovereign, has a plan in place=and it will be carried out just as He said. If someone interferes with His purposes, He will limit them. This doesn't make Him responsible for a persons choices if He chooses not to intervene though - else all humans would need to be robots, all could ascribe to a 'victim of life' and fatalistic attitude with zero responsibility.

    I think to understand this perspective, the big picture needs to be considered. Man was created sinless, man chose to sin, God knew that, but allowed it and had a plan in place to redeem man, and did. But, He left man a choice of where He ends up at the end of that plan.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  5. #175
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Something to consider...how do you know that He has not already stopped nuclear war multiple times?
    Then why Japan got nuked ?

    Why have people done so much nuclear tasts that entire planet is contaminated with radioactivity ?

    Why we(humanity) have about 30000 nukes in reserve?

    Why undeveloped countries are developing nuclear weapons as we speak?

    Why it took 70 years for USSR to fall apart?
    And it is still debatable if USSR is trully dead.


    I mean, he created something just so that he can stop it later ?
    I know that god supposed to work in a mysterious ways but I am sorry I am not buying it here.


    In the case that God can actually stop nuclear holocaust that again rises a question of free will.

  6. #176
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Consider a child then. Is a parent responsible for an adult child?

    There is much more to this - Gods sovereignity, His established authorities on earth - e.g. government, leadership, etc., in addition to His ability to limit free will of man when He wishes, but based on past posts being removed, I doubt we will be able to discuss it.
    Did the parent create the child's wills? Their desires? Did the parent create the child's universe and give them the tools to destroy it? Because if so, then yes, you can use this analogy. However, considering that the most involvement in creating a child that parents have active control over is whether or not they use protection, this still isn't the same. If God created everything, he created the world with specific vulnerabilities and created people with the intelligence to exploit these vulnerabilities, so unless he's a complete idiot, he is accountable.
    [insert funny quote/saying/etc.]

  7. #177
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    There are two wills - free will and limited free will. God allows free will to choose a relationship with Him or not. He offers limited free will depending on His purposes after that (christian or not) because He is sovereign, has a plan in place=and it will be carried out just as He said.
    So, those that are not christians have more free will than those that are (limited free will). Meaning, the moment you choose christianity, you are inadvertantly giving up your own free will to a degree (and 'placing it in god's hands, i'm gonna guess as the justification).

    If someone interferes with His purposes, He will limit them. This doesn't make Him responsible for a persons choices if He chooses not to intervene though - else all humans would need to be robots, all could ascribe to a 'victim of life' and fatalistic attitude with zero responsibility.
    Why doesn't it make him responsible for a person's action? He chooses when a person has will or not (meaning, he chooses depending on what the person will do...whether it's according to his plan or not)? So, limited free will is an illusion because it's not really free, only allowable because it's what God wants the person to do in the first place (because if otherwise, god will limit that will). So, why is a person then responsible for his/her own actions if god will intervene anyway depending on his plan?

    I think to understand this perspective, the big picture needs to be considered. Man was created sinless, man chose to sin, God knew that, but allowed it and had a plan in place to redeem man, and did. But, He left man a choice of where He ends up at the end of that plan.
    But, god allowed for sin to exist in the first place, god 'tricked' man (actually the WOMAN - Eve) to be tempted by sin, had Adam *also* pay for another's sin, and god knew what she'd choose, so, that was part of god's plan, to make man a sinner (because as you said, if it's not part of god's plan, he would limit such choices). So, god chose man to be sinner, and then make them redeem themselves for a sin that truly they didn't really choose out of their own complete free will? That's kinda fucked up for god to do that, isn't it?

  8. #178
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    There are two wills - free will and limited free will. God allows free will to choose a relationship with Him or not. He offers limited free will depending on His purposes after that (christian or not) because He is sovereign, has a plan in place=and it will be carried out just as He said. If someone interferes with His purposes, He will limit them. This doesn't make Him responsible for a persons choices if He chooses not to intervene though - else all humans would need to be robots, all could ascribe to a 'victim of life' and fatalistic attitude with zero responsibility.

    I think to understand this perspective, the big picture needs to be considered. Man was created sinless, man chose to sin, God knew that, but allowed it and had a plan in place to redeem man, and did. But, He left man a choice of where He ends up at the end of that plan.
    STOP IT! :steam: Your poor grammar bothers me more than your ideology. Believe in any god you want, but please stop capitializing words inapproriately. That makes you look worse than any other belief you may hold. Stop abusing the English language in an ill-conceived attempt to subliminally promote your god.

    Capitalizing "God" is fine, but capitalizing a personal pronoun other than "I" when it doesn't begin a sentence is wrong.

  9. #179
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    STOP IT! Your poor grammar bothers me more than your ideology. Believe in any god you want, but please stop capitializing words inapproriately. That makes you look worse than any other belief you may hold. Stop abusing the English language in an ill-conceived attempt to subliminally promote your god.
    That's not really fair, and, kind of childish, as it's not a relevant argument, as it assumes that the way ThinkingAboutIt conceives god is wrong. It's wrong to you. It's probably quite right to a whole group of others. There wouldn't be any discussion in this thread, without theists who BELIEVE responding to those of us who don't. That's the whole point of this thread. I don't think he/she picked on YOU for not capitalizing god.

    Why would you harp on such an irrelevant issue? For the dull sake of being able to pick on someone? Does it make you feel good putting another down for irrelevant things? Joking sarcasm or not.

  10. #180
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    There's still a first question. Why did God bother with man in the first place?
    What's up with all these plans to try save humanity? Isn't God omnipotent?

    I don't buy into the argument that God is attempting to save humanity because they sinned, when he know what was going to happen. He could have created the perfect world where this problem need not occur. The fact that he planted the tree of knowledge and allowed Lucifer to exist in snakeform is already a downfall, unless of course there were other plans originally.

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