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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Women's legal rights? I'd love to see proof of that.
    Do you know anything at all about the history of feminism?

  2. #152
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Well, I don't know what you surely know or believe, but, extensive study in child development when talking of self-concept (understanding, "I'm ME!"), a critical component is called referencing.
    That certainly makes sense. However I'm curious how a blind or deaf child could reference to other beings. Eitherway I'd imagine a being would have a sense of identity that they control themselves unless we're going on the assumption that these people locked up are completely void of the idea that they have thoughts etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    a) It's everlasting, and this because: 1) a person in the state of spiritual death has no ability to bring himself back to spiritual life; 2) God is under no compulsion to do this for him; and 3) leaving some persons in a state of spiritual death is necessary for a full revelation of the justice of God.

    b) Que?
    1) Why?
    2) Why?
    3) Punishment is the only form of justice?

    b) It's essentially the question: Why does God punish people for not believing? Which is commonly answered by: It's free will. To which I ask, it's clear that God has not provided enough evidence to convert these people, therefore why would he set up a system where these non-believers are condemning themselves?

  3. #153
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Feminism: Sarah Grimke was a Quaker. The Seneca Falls Convention (Elizabeth Cady Stanton) was held in a Methodist church. Christian doctrine was highly influential in first wave feminist movements.

    Racism: William Apes wrote "An Indian's Looking Glass for the White Man" in Christian terms to illustrate how racism at that time was not, in fact, biblical. Christian doctrine was also shown as support that ALL MEN are equal in the eyes of God during the Civil War era. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a PREACHER.

    Part of the reason why Christianity was able to be twisted as much as it was in earlier times was because of illiteracy. Many people could not actually read the Bible and instead just followed the guidance of their political leaders, trusting it to be the will of God. It was only after literacy began to increase in the general population that Christianity was more carefully studied and correctly interpreted as a religion of love and forgiveness.

    Any philosophy, any religion, can be used to exert ill-will upon other people, and that includes atheists just as much as religious people. Christianity is not *the reason* for these horrible things in history. It is merely a cultural context which was sometimes misapplied as justification for horrific acts.

    So your argument is Christianity (not people who happen to be Christians) helped the Feminist movement and abolition of slavery when your argument for the flip side is, well, people who JUST happen to be Christians, abused and misinterpreted the religion? How do you justify such an obvious bias between the two sides of arguments?

    Because I can just as soon come back with correlation and association where "Christianity" (or as you'd say, peeps who just *happen* to be christians) HINDERED both those causes....

    For example, exerpts from the bible were being flung by BOTH sides (for and against) during the Suffragist debates on women's right to vote. So...? Where are you getting a final overall conclusion of Christianity HELPED?

  4. #154
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    That certainly makes sense. However I'm curious how a blind or deaf child could reference to other beings.
    Blind, deaf and dumb does not negate the brain. I don't understand your confusion regarding this?

    Eitherway I'd imagine a being would have a sense of identity that they control themselves unless we're going on the assumption that these people locked up are completely void of the idea that they have thoughts etc.

    What do you mean? What's the argument there?

  5. #155
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Ok, I will join the show.


    If christian God exists that means that he/she/it created the universe and laws of physics in this universe. What mean that he/she/it is directly responsible for the fact that Nuclear warfare in this reality is possible.

    So the question is why would God do such a thing?
    Especially since this does not make much sense even if he/she/it is testing us.
    Since this allows a very small minority to wipe out majority with one blow.
    God gave us free will.
    There's no problem with this line of reasoning, however there are those who hold the opinion that the price of freedom is not worth the harm that can be created.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Blind, deaf and dumb does not negate the brain. I don't understand your confusion regarding this?
    The brain counts as a reference point? In that case I've got no problem.

    What do you mean? What's the argument there?
    Might just be a case of misunderstand your original position. Claiming that a person couldn't know what the self is without others to reference against, but if they can use their own mind as a reference point then there's no problem.

  7. #157
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    God gave us free will.
    Can you explain the idea of 'free will' further?

  8. #158
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    The brain counts as a reference point? In that case I've got no problem.

    Might just be a case of misunderstand your original position. Claiming that a person couldn't know what the self is without others to reference against, but if they can use their own mind as a reference point then there's no problem.
    No, I didn't mean brain as in isolation...humans/brain's capacity to interpret is not limited by being deaf, dumb and blind (this was my suprise with your comment). We can feel touch for example. When ANOTHER/or a leaf, anything touches us, we understand, are aware, of our body/the self....a baby often will eat its own foot, without understanding that it's its OWN foot its chewing on, as when you give a finger, it will happily munch on that, without any blip like, HEY. Pain allows us to feel our body as self. Pain being stimuli, an external. This awareness of body/physical self develops a bit later, as it learns how the body fits within its environment, where its body ends, and all else begins, etc.

    You can't use your mind as your own reference point, because that's going around in circles. X can't validate X and be validated by X. That's impossible.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Can you explain the idea of 'free will' further?
    Right I want to comment on the fact that I haven't fully taken on whether I believe in pure determinism or the randomness nature of quantam mechanics. Not to mention that this discussion will move into discussion about things that aren't empirically observable or can't be proven.

    Otherwise...
    I'll roll along with a basic definition of common day speech regarding free will -being allowed to make a decision after consideration and influence.

    Meh. I can't give a decent argument, how about you provide me one?

  10. #160
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No, I didn't mean brain as in isolation...humans/brain's capacity to interpret is not limited by being deaf, dumb and blind (this was my suprise with your comment). We can feel touch for example. When ANOTHER/or a leaf, anything touches us, we understand, are aware, of our body/the self....a baby often will eat its own foot, without understanding that it's its OWN foot its chewing on, as when you give a finger, it will happily munch on that, without any blip like, HEY. Pain allows us to feel our body as self. Pain being stimuli, an external. This awareness of body/physical self develops a bit later, as it learns how the body fits within its environment, where its body ends, and all else begins, etc.
    Yes, I specifically used numb rather than dumb. It wasn't a typo.
    I do remember reading in a book about a person who didn't have hands becacuse she never developed them in terms of exploring them, but I can't help but feel surely there is part of the self that definitely knows that it is itself from birth. Pain induced by the baby counts as an external stimuli?


    You can't use your mind as your own reference point, because that's going around in circles. X can't validate X and be validated by X. That's impossible.
    It does make me wonder what a baby thinks of it's own thoughts straight after birth, whether it even realises that it comes from itself. Right, so I take back my words that the baby knows it's own body. It seems that is indeed learnt.

    What would happen to an individual locked up for an extensive period of time, apart from dying, would they eventually recgonise their own thoughts and when does it occur?

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