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  1. #141
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused by all this discussion about not knowing the self without external stimulus. You don't need others people to know that you exist yourself, as you will be naturally aware of your self surely?

    If we're taking external stimulus to be any object than still I could just claim a blind, deaf and numb person will have awareness of themselves, a self since it's biological to know these sort of things.

  2. #142
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    The god of the old testament seems like a nasty piece of work, if that is god I'll take my chances with the devil.
    God is the same in the new and old testaments. He is a God of love, mercy, and kindness, but He is also a God of wrath, judgement, and righteousness. You have to read all of scripture to understand, because some people read a chapter and think that God just killed people, but if they read the next chapter, they will see that He waited 500 years and sent prophets to them to warn them before He did so. There is no doubt, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10:31
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  3. #143
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Regarding christianity. I'm not a christian because I can't wrap my head around these ideas.

    a) Why is it eternal damnation?
    b) Why would God set up a system where people punish themselves for not having faith?

  4. #144
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Okay.

    Now what?

    (I happen to agree, btw, that usually in fights both sides have some meat to their perspective... and it's been my frustration when I engage in conversation with people who feel they are holding an exclusive truth.)

    And Jews believe the Torah.
    And Muslims believe the Koran.

    ...and note that there are countless shades of belief within those two groups... as there are among self-professed Christians -- note all the denominations -- so what exactly does it mean to "believe God's Word"? And why one particular view of God's word and not another? What makes one particular reading of one particular holy book the "approved" version of God's word and will on planet Earth?

    Perhaps 70 years ago the majority of western society accepted one particular reading of the Bible as a "given"... but that is no longer the case, so there has to be some agreement up front about what two people accept as an authority before any meaningful conversation can happen. If you launch into expounding theology without first agreeing on the basics, any argument you make will have no traction with the listener.

    That's why Protestants believe Catholics are wrong. Jesus was godman, and mary was a woman.

    I bet you're looking for the woman in the red dress.

    It is not a feeling, it is based on the fact that the Word is God's revelation to man. It is divinely inspired rhema 'spoken' by the Holy Spirit to man to write. The Word is also Jesus Christ: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." If you look up the original language used for "Word", you will find that it is ????? 'Logos' and Logos means the living Christ. This is why He said For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12

    An example of this is in Luke 24. The disciples had been personally taught by Jesus for three years. However, they still did not understand the Scriptures. They were distracted by the conflicting interpretations of 'contemporary scholars'. It was not until Jesus began with Moses and all the prophets and explained how they revealed Him that they understood the true meaning of Scripture. 'And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself' Luke 24:27. The disciples said, 'Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the Scriptures?' Luke 24:32.

    Concerning the torah, it is the Law. The Law has not passed, any person that is not saved by Jesus Christ, which was/is the new covenant prophesied and fulfilled by Jesus Christ, messiah is held to it: 'Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1 Tim 1:9-11

    Concerning denominations, you will not find the word in the Word of God because it is man made. If it isn't in the Word, I toss it.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  5. #145
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Regarding christianity. I'm not a christian because I can't wrap my head around these ideas.

    a) Why is it eternal damnation?
    b) Why would God set up a system where people punish themselves for not having faith?
    a) It's everlasting, and this because: 1) a person in the state of spiritual death has no ability to bring himself back to spiritual life; 2) God is under no compulsion to do this for him; and 3) leaving some persons in a state of spiritual death is necessary for a full revelation of the justice of God.

    b) Que?

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    You're going to compare the number of people helped by Christian charitable work to the numbers killed by Christians throughout the centuries?
    Please - it isn't Christianity itself that did that, it's people who did that. Christianity was sometimes their excuse, but the real motive was usually greed or lust for power.

    People are rotten. They do rotten stuff all of the time, Christians or no. It just so happens that Christianity was the dominant religion in the Western World and was conveniently used as an excuse by some.

    However, Christianity has also been used as a motive to do wonderful things in society, like give men and women equal rights, and end slavery in the United States.

  7. #147
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    However, Christianity has also been used as a motive to do wonderful things in society, like give men and women equal rights, and end slavery in the United States.
    What? And, you can't really count Christianity as helping end slavery because it had its hands soiled just as much (if not more, but, I can't really say, as I don't know how one quantifies) in maintaining the institution of slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I'm a little confused by all this discussion about not knowing the self without external stimulus. You don't need others people to know that you exist yourself, as you will be naturally aware of your self surely?

    If we're taking external stimulus to be any object than still I could just claim a blind, deaf and numb person will have awareness of themselves, a self since it's biological to know these sort of things.
    Well, I don't know what you surely know or believe, but, extensive study in child development when talking of self-concept (understanding, "I'm ME!"), a critical component is called referencing.

  8. #148
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Ok, I will join the show.


    If christian God exists that means that he/she/it created the universe and laws of physics in this universe. What mean that he/she/it is directly responsible for the fact that Nuclear warfare in this reality is possible.

    So the question is why would God do such a thing?
    Especially since this does not make much sense even if he/she/it is testing us.
    Since this allows a very small minority to wipe out majority with one blow.

  9. #149
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    However, Christianity has also been used as a motive to do wonderful things in society, like give men and women equal rights, and end slavery in the United States.
    I'm sorry, what? I'm pretty sure people, Christian or otherwise, bought and sold salves even when they felt slavery was an abomination and/or tried converting the heathen slave race. Women's legal rights? I'd love to see proof of that.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What? And, you can't really count Christianity as helping end slavery because it had its hands soiled just as much (if not more, but, I can't really say, as I don't know how one quantifies) in maintaining the institution of slavery.

    Feminism: Sarah Grimke was a Quaker. The Seneca Falls Convention (Elizabeth Cady Stanton) was held in a Methodist church. Christian doctrine was highly influential in first wave feminist movements.

    Racism: William Apes wrote "An Indian's Looking Glass for the White Man" in Christian terms to illustrate how racism at that time was not, in fact, biblical. Christian doctrine was also shown as support that ALL MEN are equal in the eyes of God during the Civil War era. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a PREACHER.

    Part of the reason why Christianity was able to be twisted as much as it was in earlier times was because of illiteracy. Many people could not actually read the Bible and instead just followed the guidance of their political leaders, trusting it to be the will of God. It was only after literacy began to increase in the general population that Christianity was more carefully studied and correctly interpreted as a religion of love and forgiveness.

    Any philosophy, any religion, can be used to exert ill-will upon other people, and that includes atheists just as much as religious people. Christianity is not *the reason* for these horrible things in history. It is merely a cultural context which was sometimes misapplied as justification for horrific acts.

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