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  1. #111
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You cannot know that you know unless you know what knowing is. This is meta-cognition.
    How logically do you think the human brain would know what it knows? It builds on the knowing, gathers information, matches it against something, discards, or stores. This functionality cannot exist without outside stimuli (it has been proven through neuronal development and activation during the development phase of a child [most fascinating of proof, neuronal plasticity] - all points to stimuli as a needed variable...otherwise, the brain is a sitting duck)
    Wait, you are saying a human brain couldn't come up with ideas that it hadn't been exposed to with "outside stimuli"?
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  2. #112
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Wait, you are saying a human brain couldn't come up with ideas that it hadn't been exposed to with "outside stimuli"?
    Yes...at the simplest level, yes. There must be some association, some trigger for an idea to be born.

    Einstein came up with E=mc^2 by first acknowledging and understanding what it means by energy, mass, what multiplication is, what it means when one says 'equal' and a whole host of other components. He was not an isolated system at work when coming up with the idea. It's impossible for anything to be.

    It's all a big web, there's always a path of connection. What makes an idea novel is that the path of connection was never made before.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Wait, you are saying a human brain couldn't come up with ideas that it hadn't been exposed to with "outside stimuli"?
    Tabula rasa. No a priori knowledge. Some people believe this. I do, actually.

  4. #114
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Tabula rasa. No a priori knowledge. Some people believe this. I do, actually.
    Not really what I meant. Tabula rasa assumes ONLY experience and perception gives birth to knowledge (i.e, there was nothing before that - to me this does not ring true). My point is that knowledge is consciously formed when experience and perception triggers aspects that we already know - so that we finally KNOW what we know.

  5. #115
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Nope, I'm an SJ.
    Crafty one, as usual


    How did you deduce that I thought feeling to be an irrational function? Are you saying subjective means irrational?
    Actually, I said your statement demonstrated how much you value feeling as a rational function. In that, do you see its value in reasoning as less than that of logic. Not whether it is a rational function or not but whether you see it as a desirable form/function for reasoning.

    Why would 'it works for me' assume no questioning? Nor any outside discussion/questioning with others? Esp. if you recall that I originally entered this thread saying there is nothing independent in thought?
    It works for me says:
    1. I use personal values to come to the conclusion that this set of beliefs works for me. No implication regarding the use of either rational function. You can't really argue with personal values.
    2. When you use this for somebody else's beliefs, in my view you are also implying the above about that person and thus comes across as an end of discussion from either end.


    What exactly are you assuming is meant by my statement 'it works for me'?
    The above. Did I misunderstand? Please clarify.


    Well, in terms of the very definition of logic, it only deals in the realm of correct/incorrect, true/false given a certain premise/statement. So, multiple conclusions can only be reached if the premise allows for multiple conclusions. At the pinpoint of the argument regarding god, I cannot see multiple conclusions at the very basic level other than, either it is or isn't. Now, what 'god' is/can do, be, sing, can very well have premises that are not contingent on dichotomy with one another, hence, leading to multiple conclusions. But, the very basic question of belief, and, using the definition of what logic is....it's either right or wrong given a premise. Hence, my argument that you cannot use classical logic to base it on.
    Can't you and don't you choose how to set up the model/logical inferences and which ones you concentrate on (to falsify or not)? It seems in the realm of religion where we have limited information and observation powers, you can use logical principles (depending on how you set up the model and thus what propositions you seek to to declare as true/false) to reach either conclusion in this case - there is a God or there isn't.

    First you'd have to convince me of an absolute morality. I don't think I'm suing personal values to only mean subjective as you're assuming. I can and will call ethics subjective too.
    I'm not arguing there is an absolute morality. I said above that ethics are subjective -- I just don't see it as a black or white issue though, either an absolute morality or completely subjective values. However, there are other possibilities. There are commonly understood and accepted (based on consensus) principles we can use or establish ourselves to evaluate our beliefs based on these ethical principles.

    As a social scientist, living in the world of probabilities and not absolute truths, I can't help but apply that to this realm as well.

    Are you not attaching value to the term subjective as less than equal to objective analysis? If not, then I misunderstood you.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Are you not attaching value to the term subjective as less than equal to objective analysis? If not, then I misunderstood you.
    Nope. That's your personal take on it, given what you know of my 'craftiness' hat it must mean I'm talking of an heirarchy between objective and subjective...which was not the case.

    I shall tackle the rest when I get home (and try to better word what I'm trying to say), as I'm FREEEE now. And, ready to bounce outta the office!

    See ya soon!

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Not really what I meant. Tabula rasa assumes ONLY experience and perception gives birth to knowledge (i.e, there was nothing before that - to me this does not ring true). My point is that knowledge is consciously formed when experience and perception triggers aspects that we already know - so that we finally KNOW what we know.
    Things that we already know? Without learning them? Do you mean in terms of genetic predisposition toward learning language, etc.? I don't think that we're born "knowing" things. We have biological drives and genetic predispositions, but we don't know anything inherently. Because of our biological make-up we may sense that some things feel more natural than others, but...

  8. #118
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Nope. That's your personal take on it, given what you know of my 'craftiness' hat it must mean I'm talking of an heirarchy between objective and subjective...which was not the case.

    I shall tackle the rest when I get home (and try to better word what I'm trying to say), as I'm FREEEE now. And, ready to bounce outta the office!

    See ya soon!
    Sounds like a plan - I look forward to the continued discussion. Most unfortunately (can I do my woe is me ENfP dance here), I am not free - tons of grading so may be in and out tonight.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Argus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Back up even further to basics. And you'll understand my argument (as your response didn't really understand my argument in the first place)

    How did you know what self is? You must have had to understand yourself as a separate entity from OTHERS. I.e., you cannot know from inside your brain ONLY, you needed the external stimuli of your surroundings/environment to understand what SELF is RELATIVE to others...much less know/understand what you know about self.




    Um...okay?



    I don't get how this has to do with Christianity. Even if this were true, which it might totally be, it doesn't effect the truth of the gospel.

  10. #120
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yes...at the simplest level, yes. There must be some association, some trigger for an idea to be born.
    Yeah, I don't think there's any way for you to know that. It seems rather unlikely to be true to me.
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