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  1. #91
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    See? I find this verse entirely pointless. God has the power to easily disband the "devil" and chooses not to do it. If God were really all-loving, wouldn't God be compelled to save its creatures?
    Yes, He does have the power to destroy the devil, and He will, his end is very clear in the bible. But, destroying him does not change the fact that when Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, sin entered them and all humanity born of them. It corrupted their nature as well as that of every human being born thereafter, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

    Sin = separation from God = lost. We are born lost, condemned already. That is something people don't realize - they stand condemned right this moment if they are not saved. Final judgement and eternity in hell is only an end result of this and the choice to not be saved.

    Being lost is not a matter of 'conduct' but rather a condition of the heart. A change of behavior for the better will not alter our sin nature. What is necessary is a transformation of the heart.

    Salvation is simple: Jesus + nothing = salvation. Can't earn it because it is a free gift, and because it is a free gift paid by Jesus, you can't lose it by anything you do.

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

    God wants a relationship with us. He loves us and has a ton of great things in store for every one of us, and wants to do great things through us. Transformation of the heart can only happen when we are saved because once we are saved, we are no longer under the power and condemnation of sin. At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit seals us, lives inside us, and guides us in everything. Not takes over us, guides; we do not become robots, we still make our own choices, but we are given the mind of Christ, convicted of any future sin so we can repent (if we don't, we tend to move away from God out of guilt, not vice versa), and are literally changed into a new person. It happens over time, though many people do a 180 in life and it is very noticeable, and you remember when you got saved because your outlook and view of things really does change a lot. And, most importantly, and freeing of all is that salvation is permanent - nothing and no one can take us from Almighty God.

    God's attitude toward the lost is one of love and patience. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that His desire is that no one perish but that all come to repentance, and He provided a way for us to do that. He also allows those that do not want a relationship with Him their choice.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  2. #92
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This cannot be done practically because the very existence of the concept will always come from the 'outside'. It defies meta-cognition. A person born in isolation will never be aware that what he is contemplating is 'god' or not...unless he is aware of the concept in the first place. The seed will need to be planted someway, it can never come from inside without any outside influence. Ever.
    Finding 'god' doesn't necessarily presume earnest participation in the identification of a superentity/singular creative cosmic force.

    Universal human axioms (primarily those dealing with life/death/existential meaning) fundamentally link to the idea of 'what happens next' respective to human consciousness as it (perhaps ideally) disavows present cognitive perception and transitions into a state of being/unbeing after biological death.

    So although the terminology and directive goal of deciphering 'god' can be considerably different between cultures, it is a shared instinctive trait to question the inevitability of one's death and what awaits him thereafter -- even as a social impulse to better appreciate his identity in whatever communal system he is invariably oriented (even those in isolation must negotiate with environmental cues, as to enhance the likelihood/quality of basic biological survival).

  3. #93
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    +1.

    Nobody worships Mary, and Catholics also believe that Jesus was God incarnate as man and worthy of worship. The main differences between Protestants and Catholics today are:

    1. The belief that taking communion is taking the physical body of Jesus. Catholics do, Protestants don't.
    2. The belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Protestants (mostly evangelicals) do, Catholics don't.

    It's not germane to the discussion at hand, but it still bugs me.
    You forgot the "priesthood of all believers" aspect of Protestantism-an EXTREMELY important difference. There is also the whole "salvation by faith alone" thing, though there seems to be major disagreement among Protestants as to what that really means.

    Now begone with ye foul popery!

  4. #94
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Universal human axioms (primarily those dealing with life/death/existential meaning) fundamentally link to the idea of 'what happens next' respective to human consciousness as it (perhaps ideally) disavows present cognitive perception and transitions into a state of being/unbeing after biological death.
    We can't know any kind of universal human axioms unless we accept ourselves as part of the whole, as part of humanity. Me living, and then dying, is only afforded to me by watching/knowing of, another's death, and knowing what the difference is between life and death. It is afforded to me by a relation to the outside. I will not have any concept of my life as living, and, the inevitable possibility of dying without being an audience to it first.

  5. #95
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    We can't know any kind of universal human axioms unless we accept ourselves as part of the whole, as part of humanity. Me living, and then dying, is only afforded to me by watching/knowing of, another's death, and knowing what the difference is between life and death. It is afforded to me by a relation to the outside. I will not have any concept of my life as living, and, the inevitable possibility of dying without being an audience to it.
    I think we disagree less that you may suppose, my fine woman.

  6. #96
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Yes, He does have the power to destroy the devil, and He will, his end is very clear in the bible. But, destroying him does not change the fact that
    when Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, sin entered them and all humanity born of them. It corrupted their nature as well as that of every human being born thereafter, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

    Sin = separation from God = lost. We are born lost, condemned already. That is something people don't realize - they stand condemned right this moment if they are not saved. Final judgement and eternity in hell is only an end result of that.

    Being lost is not a matter of 'conduct' but rather a condition of the heart. A change of behavior for the better will not alter our sin nature. What is necessary is a transformation of the heart.

    Salvation is simple: Jesus + nothing = salvation. Can't earn it because it is a free gift, and because it is a free gift paid by Jesus, you can't lose it by anything you do.

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

    God wants a relationship with us. He loves us and has a ton of great things in store for every one of us, and wants to do great things through us. Transformation of the heart can only happen when we are saved because once we are saved, we are no longer under the power and condemnation of sin. At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit seals us, lives inside us, and guides us in everything. Not takes over us, guides; we do not become robots, we still make our own choices, but we are given the mind of Christ, convicted of any future sin so we can repent, and are literally changed into a new person. It happens over time, though many people do a 180 in life and it is very noticeable, and you remember when you got saved because your outlook and view of things really does change a lot. And, most importantly, and freeing of all is that salvation is permanent - nothing and no one can take us from Almighty God.

    God's attitude toward the lost is one of love and patience. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that His desire is that no one perish but that all come to repentance, and He provided a way for us to do that. He also allows those that do not want a relationship with Him their choice.
    You explain the general doctrine well enough.

    Again, the bottom line is that you learned a doctrine from a book... which is basically the recorded experience of human beings with (presumably) the divine. None of it is self-evident, and there are lots of holy books out there and personal experiences that people share to describe their (presumed) encounters with the divine. What makes one authority more "authentic" than the other?

    Explaining the theology doesn't say anything about whether the theology is true. (For example, "prove" to someone that there is a literal Judeo-Christian devil -- and even the Bible shows an evolving evil persona over centuries of time rather than being established in full-form from day one.)

    In any case, what stands as a valid statement of faith from you doesn't have a lot of impact in a discussion setting, where people are looking for common ground that can be agreed upon so that the veracity of further ideas can be established to the satisfaction of both.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #97
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I think we disagree less that you may suppose, my fine woman.
    :steam:

    *off to find my next victim as playing with Night is no fun!*

    I'm in a disagreeable mood, dangit!

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    Yes, He does have the power to destroy the devil, and He will, his end is very clear in the bible. But, destroying him does not change the fact that
    when Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, sin entered them and all humanity born of them. It corrupted their nature as well as that of every human being born thereafter, with the exception of Jesus Christ.
    I've never fully understood this dichotomy between god and (d)evil. Isn't 'god' in terms of Christianity the big all? If not, then, God cannot be all-powerful as there is a separate other - the devil. How can you know god has the power to destroy the devil if the devil is a separate entity beyond god? What qualifies god to destroy the devil, the other?

  8. #98
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This cannot be done practically because the very existence of the concept will always come from the 'outside'. It defies meta-cognition. A person born in isolation will never be aware that what he is contemplating is 'god' or not...unless he is aware of the concept in the first place. The seed will need to be planted someway, it can never come from inside without any outside influence. Ever.
    I don't think the suggestion was for independently seeking God without any idea of what that may mean. No reinventing the wheel is being suggested, I think. Although, on reflection, even though we may use different nomenclature, it does not imply that we aren't independently reaching the same understanding of there being a higher being/power/whatever. Also people did independently reach some shared ideas of universal truth. That's the most fascinating part for me.

    I think the suggestions made are along these lines and I couldn't agree with them more. I have thus far refused to participate in this thread for this reason alone:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Theology doesn't matter -- theology only works as a justification if you already accept all tenets of Christianity as true.

    Is it any wonder that people have issues with this? You need to step outside your own beliefs and theology if you want to grasp why people are taking issues with this sort of belief structure. As I mentioned in a response to you elsewhere today, the information you send through Ti is what determines outcome, but right now you're just sending "pro-Christian" ideas through and so you're not really grasping why people are having issues. You can still maintain your conclusions, but maybe putting yourself in someone else's mindframe would help you understand why they are saying these things.
    OP - humbly, you made your leap of faith. Could you possibly make your leap off faith (or out of it) to understand where people are coming from? Particularly using passages from the bible by themselves as evidence seem least useful because some of us believe they are and have always been open to interpretation.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I don't think the suggestion was for independently seeking God without any idea of what that may mean. No reinventing the wheel is being suggested, I think. Although, on reflection, even though we may use different nomenclature, it does not imply that we aren't independently reaching the same understanding of there being a higher being/power/whatever. Also people did independently reach some shared ideas of universal truth. That's the most fascinating part for me.
    I'm arguing that there is no inherent independent, in the literal sense of the word. Everything is connected, so, it is impossible to say that there wouldn't be any outside influence or pressure.

    It's less about the concept of god, than about knowing to think/contemplate such concepts in the first place..for which Night said is because we all think of life and death, which still doesn't resolve this independent inquiry buziness, cuz a person only knows what life and death is through another.

    There is no such thing as an inherently independent thought from outside influences/pressures. As humans it cannot be. It defies meta-cognition.

  10. #100
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Okay. I understand your point better now.

    Assuming there are multiple external pressures and influences, the suggestion would be to examine a set of acquired beliefs from as many perspectives as possible. Also use your internal powers of logic and/or feeling to distinguish between those logically inconsistent, poorly framed, poorly compassionate, poor explanations of the world as we observe it empirically. Both internalized logic and feeling provide enough basis to question any set of institutionalized religious beliefs.

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