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  1. #1
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Default Ayn Rand: The Ultimate INTJ

    Tell me what to think about objectivism. I value your opinion over my own.
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    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    There's a lot there I kind of enjoy, but Rand herself was a crazy bitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There's a lot there I kind of enjoy, but Rand herself was a crazy bitch.
    I'm 3/4 through The Fountainhead. I can't help but to think that exact same thing...Her preface to TF is that the book was written "to present the perfect man" rather than to present objectivism. I just don't see how he is the perfect man...I don't see how his character would not be improved by adding compassion, but she seems to think this.
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    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I'm 3/4 through The Fountainhead. I can't help but to think that exact same thing...Her preface to TF is that the book was written "to present the perfect man" rather than to present objectivism. I just don't see how he is the perfect man...I don't see how his character would not be improved by adding compassion, but she seems to think this.

    Well, part of the point of Objectivism is that you should not be compassionate toward the unproductive/lazy/unscrupulous. Politically, Rand and I share a lot of views, but the unremitting orthodoxy and dogma is silly. What's the point of being a libertarian if you have someone telling you which books to read, which films to watch, how you should behave in personal relationships, and so on?
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    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Well, part of the point of Objectivism is that you should not be compassionate toward the unproductive/lazy/unscrupulous. Politically, Rand and I share a lot of views, but the unremitting orthodoxy and dogma is silly. What's the point of being a libertarian if you have someone telling you which books to read, which films to watch, how you should behave in personal relationships, and so on?
    yes yes yes. She was definitely not a libertarian, though. Libertarianism is complete personal/economic rights as long as you don't infringe on anyone else's (of course there is more to it than that...) And Objectivism is complete personal rights, no matter whose rights you infringe upon because the perception of rights is objective to you. Among other things, it denounces religion, as well as altruism (which obviously does not lend to someone who feels it is their right to aid or worship). "Rational self-interest" does not appeal to me and makes no logical or practical sense.

    I find her writing to be too preachy, for one. And though she may start off with a good idea, she takes it to a ridiculous extreme. Especially with her characters being either gross, unreachable prototypes, or bumbling stereotypes. There are never any shades of gray in humanity, in her writings.

    Atlas Shrugged was my favorite novel of hers, but there is a whole ~100pg chunk (the John Galt monologue) that I just skip over since she just bangs the same idea into your head over and over and over. She's relentless. Anthem was a good novella.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Among other things, it denounces religion, as well as altruism (which obviously does not lend to someone who feels it is their right to aid or worship). "Rational self-interest" does not appeal to me and makes no logical or practical sense.

    I find her writing to be too preachy, for one. And though she may start off with a good idea, she takes it to a ridiculous extreme. Especially with her characters being either gross, unreachable prototypes, or bumbling stereotypes. There are never any shades of gray in humanity, in her writings.

    Anthem was a good novella.
    I liked Anthem. I read it first, and I was surprised when I started reading TF, because the main character is of such a similar mind and profession...So I'm curious: would it be within the boundaries of objectivism to say that each person has his own views, and the world would be best if each person followed his own calling? This makes a lot of sense to me because of the different needs that different people have (illustrated by MBTI). For instance, I and the other NF's I know value altruism, and this is an important piece of the whole. Scientific advancement is also an important element of humanity, as well as art. We each have our niche, and we all follow and enforce these laws within ourselves. That is my view on the state of things, which could be considered a practical, working objectivism. But I just do not understand why altruism should be cut out of the picture. I will read on this subject someday, but can someone briefly explain this to me?
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  7. #7
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I liked Anthem. I read it first, and I was surprised when I started reading TF, because the main character is of such a similar mind and profession...So I'm curious: would it be within the boundaries of objectivism to say that each person has his own views, and the world would be best if each person followed his own calling? This makes a lot of sense to me because of the different needs that different people have (illustrated by MBTI). For instance, I and the other NF's I know value altruism, and this is an important piece of the whole. Scientific advancement is also an important element of humanity, as well as art. We each have our niche, and we all follow and enforce these laws within ourselves. That is my view on the state of things, which could be considered a practical, working objectivism. But I just do not understand why altruism should be cut out of the picture. I will read on this subject someday, but can someone briefly explain this to me?
    Then you would lean more toward Libertarianism (hey, you're in good company *coughs*) For a matter of record, Libertarianism encourages altruism, rather than relying on the state.

    There are positive foundations of Objectivism in my eyes, but the negatives bear more weight for me.

    some random (albeit, illustrative to my negative points) quotes from Objectivim website:

    "You cannot say 'I love you' if you cannot say the 'I'," wrote Ayn Rand. According to Objectivism, a person's own life and happiness is the ultimate good. To achieve happiness requires a morality of rational selfishness, one that does not give undeserved rewards to others and that does not ask them for oneself.

    "An artwork must therefore be accessible to comprehension at the level of perception. It must be recognizably representative of something. A painting that presents a figure or scene is art. Paint splotches are not. "

    "Objectivism holds that there is no greater moral goal than achieving happiness."

    'The few times Ayn Rand spoke publicly about homosexuality, her remarks were disparaging. She said that homosexuality is a manifestation of psychological "flaws, corruptions, errors, [and] unfortunate premises" and that it is both "immoral" and "disgusting"'

    "Objectivism rejects any notion of the supernatural as incompatible with the objectivity and regularity of nature as identified by reason. There is no credible evidence of miracles, magic, or other supernatural phenomena in nature." (in reference to religion)

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    Ok. The Fountainhead opens with worshipful images of a nude man. There's lots of stuff in objectivism about how women should follow man's lead. Perfect men, hero worship = romance novel.

    Also, she calls lots of things "objective" which in reality are just cultural social conditioning and her personal preferences. Objectivism is creepy, sort of like organized religion.

    As far as libertarians are concerned, I'd take a nice altruistic Ron Paul-ite over a Randroid any day. Of course, Ayn would have probably punched you in the face if you called her a libertarian. Because she wasn't one.

  9. #9
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Ayn Rand is the ultimate INTJ in the same way that Colonel Klink was the ultimate German.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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    Ayn Rand is an INTJ for sure, but I like her books.

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