User Tag List

View Poll Results: Who was Jesus?

Voters
114. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Son of God (in the traditionally understood evangelical sense)

    43 37.72%
  • A very good and wise man.

    22 19.30%
  • Definitely more than human... but nothing else can be said with clarity.

    7 6.14%
  • A man tapped into the "ineffable Greatness" of the cosmos/universe.

    3 2.63%
  • A idiosyncratic nut.

    9 7.89%
  • It is unclear whether Jesus actually lived.

    21 18.42%
  • Jesus existed, but it's unsure whether he was human or "more than human"/godly.

    9 7.89%
First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 119

Thread: Who Was Jesus?

  1. #11
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    There is much that is controversial about Jesus, but it is generally accepted even among agnostics that there was a man by this name who lived roughly between 5 BC and 33 AD. He was executed by order of the Roman provincial governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, and the sentence was carried out in the manner commonly used at the time, i.e. impalement or crucifixion. On these general points the historical sources are in agreement.

    So when I subsequently look at Psalm 22, a lyric written by David ben Jesse some ten centuries prior, I find striking similarities between the account of suffering in David's psalm and the historical account of the death of Jesus by crucifixion.

    The psalm begins with the question "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" which is of course why Jesus would have said that same thing in the process of his execution.

    Please note, also:

    16 ...Dogs have surrounded me;
    a band of evil men has encircled me,
    they have pierced my hands and my feet.

    17 I can count all my bones;
    people stare and gloat over me.

    18 They divide my garments among them
    and cast lots for my clothing....


    The piercing of hands and feet was common practice in crucifixion, but as I understand it would not have been particularly familiar to David in 1000 BC. The casting of lots for clothing was unusual too, and yet found in both accounts.

    Act of God? Prophetic utterance? Coincidence? Psychic phenomenon? Jungian synchronicity in action? Nothing at all? It's up to the student to decide, of course.

    It's worth noting, by the way, that the psalm can be corroborated by religious Jewish sources hostile to Christianity. While it is possible that the gospels may have been manipulated to fit Psalm 22, it's highly unlikely to the point of impossibility that Psalm 22 was manipulated to fit the gospels.

  2. #12

    Default

    How 'bout an option for why this question is addressed just to Ivy, and not to me? lol.

    I believe, according to Scripture, that Jesus was more than man, and more than just the "Son of God" (although that He definitely was). He was not only these, but God Himself, wrapped in flesh.

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9).

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (I Timothy 3:16)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 1:1, 14)

    Jesus is the Father
    Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, [red]Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?[/red] (John 14:8-9)

    [red]I and my Father are one.[/red] (John 10:30)

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, [b]The everlasting Father[/b[, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

    Jesus is the Son
    [red]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/red] (John 10:36)

    Jesus is the Comforter (Holy Ghost/Spirit)
    [red]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[/red] (John 14:18)

    The Holy Ghost is the Father
    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:18)

    So....
    A. Jesus is the Father
    B. Jesus is the Son
    C. Jesus is the Holy Ghost.
    D. The Holy Ghost is the Father.

    It is also interesting to note that YHWH (the Old Testament Name for God) translates into "Jesus" in Greek (with "Yeshua" tying them together, since I believe "Jesus" is actually an English translated Name).

    Also, you will note several times when Jesus uses the sacred phrase "I AM" to refer to Himself just as He did in the Old Testament. (This is actually a poor English translation of a verb tense we don't have, meaning "I am, I was, and I always will be.")

    And finally, we note many times in the book of Acts (2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16) that the Apostles responded to Jesus command in Matthew 28:18 to "go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," by baptizing several thousand people in the Name of Jesus.

    There's more, but I think you get the point. If not, just ask, lol.
    By the way, I'm the girl in the picture, lol.... happily married though, so don't even...

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RansomedbyFire View Post
    How 'bout an option for why this question is addressed just to Ivy, and not to me? lol.
    It was split off from another thread, and the initial question was posed to me because of something I said in that thread. You are more than welcome to answer for yourself!
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    16 ...Dogs have surrounded me;
    a band of evil men has encircled me,
    they have pierced my hands and my feet.

    17 I can count all my bones;
    people stare and gloat over me.

    18 They divide my garments among them
    and cast lots for my clothing....


    The piercing of hands and feet was common practice in crucifixion, but as I understand it would not have been particularly familiar to David in 1000 BC. The casting of lots for clothing was unusual too, and yet found in both accounts.

    Act of God? Prophetic utterance? Coincidence?

    Well, there is a problem here -- you are reading a great deal into this.

    First of all, it's poetry. So now you have figurative language coming into play.

    What does it mean to have "evil people encircle me?" That can apply to any situation.

    What does it mean to have someone pierce your hands and feet? Does it have to apply just to crucifixion? No, not in the least. It happens to fit with crucifixion but is not confined to it in the least, and might not even be literal. Couldn't it simply mean that "one cannot escape," because all four of one's limbs are held immovably? (Like nailing one's "feet to the floor?")

    Your interpretation is not a bad one, but I am simply saying it is SO vague that it is certainly not confined to this particular event in Jesus, especially considering that it's poetry (so it's not necessarily prophetic) and that thousands of years are being considered. It is like people reading Nostradamus and trying to 'fit in' current day events. So many things could apply!

    Gloating, staring, splitting up the spoils of the victim. These are hardly definitive of Jesus' crucifixion (and only Jesus' crucifixion).

    You are seeing a pattern for an event you want justification for; but the pattern is applicable to far too many things. It's like in "A Few Good Men" where Jessup essentially says, "I hope you've pinned your case to more than a phone bill." There's no case here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Also it looks to me like "I can count all my bones" could be a poetic way of saying I am starving to death. Starving, stabbed, encircled by evil men-- I read that as "I am in an awful place in life, and I cry out to God for help." A nearly universal human experience. Certainly it does apply to Christ's last days, but the beauty of it (to me) is that it doesn't ONLY apply to Christ's last days.

    It's also worth mentioning that the authors of the Gospels would have been aware of the psalm as a lamentation to God, and may have been linking it to what they wrote about as a literary device, to illustrate how even Jesus cried out to God in his time of peril. I don't think this in any way lessens the essential truth of the Gospels. The literal truth, yes, but who needs literal anyway?

    I'm no Bible scholar but this is how it reads to me.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #16
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, there is a problem here -- you are reading a great deal into this.

    First of all, it's poetry. So now you have figurative language coming into play.

    What does it mean to have "evil people encircle me?" That can apply to any situation.

    What does it mean to have someone pierce your hands and feet? Does it have to apply just to crucifixion? No, not in the least. It happens to fit with crucifixion but is not confined to it in the least, and might not even be literal. Couldn't it simply mean that "one cannot escape," because all four of one's limbs are held immovably? (Like nailing one's "feet to the floor?")

    Your interpretation is not a bad one, but I am simply saying it is SO vague that it is certainly not confined to this particular event in Jesus, especially considering that it's poetry (so it's not necessarily prophetic) and that thousands of years are being considered. It is like people reading Nostradamus and trying to 'fit in' current day events. So many things could apply!

    Gloating, staring, splitting up the spoils of the victim. These are hardly definitive of Jesus' crucifixion (and only Jesus' crucifixion).

    You are seeing a pattern for an event you want justification for; but the pattern is applicable to far too many things. It's like in "A Few Good Men" where Jessup essentially says, "I hope you've pinned your case to more than a phone bill." There's no case here.
    Well then, in light of the following:

    Act of God? Prophetic utterance? Coincidence? Psychic phenomenon? Jungian synchronicity in action? Nothing at all? It's up to the student to decide, of course.
    ...it appears as though you have made your decision, and your choice was "nothing at all."

    I'm okay with that.

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    Well then, in light of the following:
    ...it appears as though you have made your decision, and your choice was "nothing at all."
    No, I didn't.

    I didn't make any decision.

    I see the pattern you do. I also see lots of other patterns. Since you only are choosing to focus on one, I felt the need to clarify that many patterns still exist.

    I suppose I am waiting for you to tell me what "clinched" it for you that your pattern was the correct way to perceive things. What am I missing? What did I not see? What is the definitive connection that makes your pattern right and the rest wrong?

    Or is it just a personal choice based on preference?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    No, I didn't.

    I didn't make any decision.
    Yeah, you did. You decided "There's no case here."

    As I said, I'm okay with that.

    Understand, INTP, there is no way you're ever going to own all the empirical knowledge required to make an absolutely informed decision on this point.

    Me, I'm willing to go with what I perceive as the bet with the best odds. Because most of my evidence is subjective and therefore from your point of view both invalid and useless, I won't bother you with it.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    Understand, INTP, there is no way you're ever going to own all the empirical knowledge required to make an absolutely informed decision on this point.
    I am not asking for an "Absolutely informed decision" on this point.

    To use the same logic you've applied to me, i suppose I can say that you've apparently made an arbitrary decision based on personal preference and "played the odds."

    It sounds like you should give up witnessing. Sharing your reasoning and story is rather essential to passing on the spark, isn't it?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I am not asking for an "Absolutely informed decision" on this point.

    To use the same logic you've applied to me, i suppose I can say that you've apparently made an arbitrary decision based on personal preference and "played the odds."

    It sounds like you should give up witnessing. Sharing your reasoning and story is rather essential to passing on the spark, isn't it?
    I don't know if I agree with that... I imagine there are many ways to skin a cat here, so to speak. I'm sure my "say absolutely nothing with any degree of certitude" approach is equally maddening to some and proportionally not-maddening to others.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

Similar Threads

  1. Was Jesus white?
    By FigerPuppet in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 07-19-2011, 12:14 AM
  2. Who was the greatest (...) of all time?
    By Frederico Rogeiro in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-03-2010, 12:33 PM
  3. Was Jesus a Buddhist?
    By Mayflow in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 121
    Last Post: 03-15-2010, 09:56 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO