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View Poll Results: Who was Jesus?

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  • The Son of God (in the traditionally understood evangelical sense)

    43 37.72%
  • A very good and wise man.

    22 19.30%
  • Definitely more than human... but nothing else can be said with clarity.

    7 6.14%
  • A man tapped into the "ineffable Greatness" of the cosmos/universe.

    3 2.63%
  • A idiosyncratic nut.

    9 7.89%
  • It is unclear whether Jesus actually lived.

    21 18.42%
  • Jesus existed, but it's unsure whether he was human or "more than human"/godly.

    9 7.89%
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Thread: Who Was Jesus?

  1. #111
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default God and Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Judous View Post
    Right. What evidence do you see makes God's existence maximally clear? So far we have seen that both God and the theory of Evolution ultimately cannot be proven is disproved. They are two separate but parallel lines of belief, and I found myself standing between the two
    God and Evolution are in two separate categories.

    Evolution can be approached through evidence while God can be approached through belief.

    And Evolution can be falsified by evidence while God cannot be falsified by evidence.

    And God can be believed while Evolution doesn't depend on belief.

    Victor.

  2. #112
    Member Judous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    God and Evolution are in two separate categories.

    Evolution can be approached through evidence while God can be approached through belief.

    And Evolution can be falsified by evidence while God cannot be falsified by evidence.

    And God can be believed while Evolution doesn't depend on belief.

    Victor.
    The theory of Evolution vs. Creationism are the same category. Evolution is a theory based on the evidence around us. But this evidence can be used in ways to explain both sides.

    The science of things going on around us can be from an incalcuable number of perfect events. Or can be the grand design of a higher being.

    Both take the same amount of faith to believe

  3. #113
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    They are not mutually exclusive.

    Didn't read the whole thread as I've been here before.. but what does that have to do with "Who Jesus Was?"

  4. #114
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's why damnation before true awareness (e.g., not having the option to change after death, where we finally ARE able to see) seems false to me.
    It seems false because it is false!

    1. What exactly is good and what exactly is evil? We know that good/bad often varies on the perspective of the viewer vs the viewee, yet people still would insist on overlaying their own labels of sin on particular behaviors and then saying the scales "need to be balanced."
    Good question. Brief answer: it is good for a being to act according to its nature and it is evil for a being to act contrary to its nature.

    2. There is no literal punishment in many relationships that must be manifestly carried out, due to the nature of forgiveness. Often people will forgive -- spouses, their partner, or parents, their children -- without bringing their suffering to light. Because to do so would ruin the nature of the forgiveness.

    In this sense, there IS a punishment -- the forgiver is relinquishing the rights to have the other person offer recompense and they absorb emotional pain -- but it is not overt.

    So if good parents and people who love us can do that for us, why must there be "overt" justice on God's part for humanity's generic "sin nature," where He had to kill his own son as part of somehow balancing the scales?
    Justice is often flexible; justice assumes equality, and there are often many ways to restore equality to an unjust situation.

    Did God have to kill his own son? What if only Eve had eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Had Adam not sinned, would he not be able to die to save his wife?

    What is the nature of sin anyway?

    And would God be unjust for forgiving us for offensive choices we make out of a lack of understanding?
    What if not understanding is a sin? Would we be any better off if our outward choices were forgiven, but our inward, sinful condition was left unforgiven and unchanged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Judous View Post
    Right. What evidence do you see makes God's existence maximally clear? So far we have seen that both God and the theory of Evolution ultimately cannot be proven is disproved. They are two separate but parallel lines of belief, and I found myself standing between the two
    I don't see anything. I'm a robot, a philosophy zombie. All I can do is tell you what is and isn't rationally consistent.

  5. #115
    Senior Member marm's Avatar
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    I'm responding to the OP.

    I don't know who Jesus was. I've researched it and found historical evidence lacking. So, I rationally conclude that its highly probable that he didn't exist. Personally, it isn't important to me one way or another. As for what I do know, there is immense evidence of mythological comparisons. This either means that early Christians borrowed or were otherwise influenced by other religions, or that there is an archetypal truth behind all such mythologies that early Christians tapped into... or both.

    I'm a spiritual person. I'm comfortable with something along the ideas of Mathew Fox's Cosmic Christ. However, specific names such as 'Jesus' and 'Christ' aren't important to me. I'm attracted to some truths I've found in Christianity, but I don't know to what extent that makes me Christian. Its also not important how others consider me. I was raised in New Thought Christianity and according to that I am Christian. But many Christians would consider me a heretic or at least not a true Christian. In fact, the heretic Valentinus is a favorite of mine. Some aspects of the Gnostic view of Jesus makes way more sense to me.

    Its interesting that the mythological and the gnostic views of Jesus weren't options in the poll.

  6. #116
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade View Post
    Its interesting that the mythological and the gnostic views of Jesus weren't options in the poll.
    If I missed a few options, it was just an oversight on my part... not intentional.

    (Maybe at some point we can do another one, with more options, if people have interest.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Judous View Post
    The theory of Evolution vs. Creationism are the same category. Evolution is a theory based on the evidence around us. But this evidence can be used in ways to explain both sides. The science of things going on around us can be from an incalcuable number of perfect events. Or can be the grand design of a higher being. Both take the same amount of faith to believe
    I disagree.

    Neither is "proven" definitively. But just because two things can't be conclusively proven does not at all mean that both would take the same amount of faith to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Good question. Brief answer: it is good for a being to act according to its nature and it is evil for a being to act contrary to its nature.
    Provocative answer.

    It leads to a discussion of "what is natural" for someone and what is not... and what if what is natural for one person is destructive to many others?

    What if only Eve had eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Had Adam not sinned, would he not be able to die to save his wife?
    I don't know. It's fascinating to think about. And it's one thing that leads me to believe the story was created to explain human evil/darkness, rather than being "historical" in nature. It's conveniently shaped to deal with only the points that someone wanted to make.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #117
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Matt 16:15-17

    15 "But what about you?" [Jesus] asked. "Who do you say I am?"

    16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by My Father in heaven.
    NIV


    Jer 29:13-14
    13 You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart.
    NIV

  8. #118
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    I personally disagree with the idea that a reasoned faith is impossible, or that blind faith is called for by the bible.

    1. So many reasons for my faith I'm not sure where to start... Some may of course be inaccurate. I'm human and these are only observations. But overall I've reached the decision that it's more likely than not.

    Awe of the numinous, the fact people even think about right or wrong, communication, the themes of blood as sacrifice and death to new life found in ancient religions, the prophecies in the old testament very specifically fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth (not all poetry either ), the types of Jesus in the OT, the huge coherency of the bible despite the time span over which it was written and the different authors, outside texts yes (with an understanding of the bits likely added later), an historical consideration as to the validity of the texts and when they were written, if any changes occured or were likely after the text was produced, examining the gospel accounts and the book of Acts, and the claims of Christ (C.S. Lewis put it that he was either mad, a liar, or was what he cliamed - the Son of God), combined with his life and the lives of his disciples, the change in his discples after the resurrection. etc. etc. etc.

    NTs: I do consider ideas for and against different aspects and the whole.

    Note I don't think miracles in the gospels are a proof of their hisorical inaccuracy. They could be added later, lies ... etc. Or if it really was God involved there'd be no problem. Either viewpoint comes from a preconception. (There may be other explanations also, just using the most common).

    2. In Acts, it's noted that the "Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (17:11) John's Gospel records Thomas asking for observable and physical proof that Jesus was alive - and he got it. Paul tells the Corinthians that many witnesses "are still living, though some have fallen asleep." (1 Corinthians 15:6).

    I believe an earlier post mentioned that evolution will still be true even if people disbelieve in it. Yes, and the same is true of all reality. If a spiritual world exists, it does whether we believe it to or not. And vice-versa.

    I do think that examination of the world and of history can point out some clues as to reality however. Of course, peoples opinions vary even if given the same raw data, and history isn't as clear cut as physical sciences. *sigh*

  9. #119
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    Just where I stand on the matter, as that's the thread topic.

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