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View Poll Results: Who was Jesus?

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  • The Son of God (in the traditionally understood evangelical sense)

    43 37.72%
  • A very good and wise man.

    22 19.30%
  • Definitely more than human... but nothing else can be said with clarity.

    7 6.14%
  • A man tapped into the "ineffable Greatness" of the cosmos/universe.

    3 2.63%
  • A idiosyncratic nut.

    9 7.89%
  • It is unclear whether Jesus actually lived.

    21 18.42%
  • Jesus existed, but it's unsure whether he was human or "more than human"/godly.

    9 7.89%
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Thread: Who Was Jesus?

  1. #101
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Dammit, closed poll!

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFeeVerte View Post
    Im glad that it doesnt! God isnt about religion. Religion is man made. God is all about relationship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What kind of relationship?
    The relationship between human beings and objective logic - and how these two things must be kept as far apart as possible.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  2. #102
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Not that canard. Protestant Christianity might not be ceremonial or ritualistic but it is most definitely a religion.
    It's also ceremonial and ritualistic. Communion? Altar calls? Every denomination has its ceremonies & rituals. Heck, even the least ceremonial denominations have weddings and funerals.

    My dad says this kind of thing, and I never understood why religion was a dirty word to him.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #103
    Member Judous's Avatar
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    I have hard time believing in God, or Jesus for two reasons.

    I consider myself a pretty smart person. So if God is an exponentially wiser being. How could he ask me to jump blindly into a religion when there is no physical evidence, and clear holes in religions.

    Also if God is so powerful, I don't understand why he would have to send his son to die for our wrong doings? Couldn't a being that is so powerful that he is able to create something as vast as the universe, be able to wash sins away?

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judous View Post
    I have hard time believing in God, or Jesus for two reasons.

    I consider myself a pretty smart person. So if God is an exponentially wiser being. How could he ask me to jump blindly into a religion when there is no physical evidence, and clear holes in religions.
    I think that the lack of physical evidence is precisely the point. If the physical evidence of a God were apparent, then there is no particular faith demonstrated by a belief in God. Your concern on this point also makes an assumption that building knowledge based on physical evidence is the highest aspiration/noblest pursuit of humanity, and thus the level on which a God would choose to appeal to us. I'll admit that many would say that this is the case. But it's possible that logic and reasoning are not the defining talent or raison d'etre of humanity; perhaps our greatest talents and insights are more ineffable in nature and we either haven't developed them fully or don't tap into them.

    Also if God is so powerful, I don't understand why he would have to send his son to die for our wrong doings? Couldn't a being that is so powerful that he is able to create something as vast as the universe, be able to wash sins away?
    I think a being that powerful would in fact be able to wash sins away. But I think that idea is beside the point; all Judeo-Christian religious tradition asserts that God endowed people with free will, so they might choose to follow him or not. In this scenario, washing away of sin is a power that God chooses not to exercise. Think of a parent trying to convince a child to share a toy with his brother. If the parent simply makes the child share, the sharing is without virtue; if the parent allows the child to make the decision and he chooses to share the toy, then the child has demonstrated virtue.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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    /Nohari

  5. #105
    Member Judous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    I think a being that powerful would in fact be able to wash sins away. But I think that idea is beside the point; all Judeo-Christian religious tradition asserts that God endowed people with free will, so they might choose to follow him or not. In this scenario, washing away of sin is a power that God chooses not to exercise. Think of a parent trying to convince a child to share a toy with his brother. If the parent simply makes the child share, the sharing is without virtue; if the parent allows the child to make the decision and he chooses to share the toy, then the child has demonstrated virtue.
    I completely agree with your view on freewill. What I was trying to say is why would he have to send his son to die. If we choose out of our own freewill to believe in him, then could he not forgive us and it would be done?

  6. #106
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judous View Post
    I have hard time believing in God, or Jesus for two reasons.

    I consider myself a pretty smart person. So if God is an exponentially wiser being. How could he ask me to jump blindly into a religion when there is no physical evidence, and clear holes in religions.
    If belief in God is morally obligatory, then there must be evidence that God exists. If the consequence for unbelief is maximal punishment, then God's existence must be maximally clear--those guilty of unbelief must be without excuse. If God were to punish you for something you couldn't know, then God would be unjust, (indeed, God would be infinitely unjust), but historical theism maintains that God is just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judous View Post
    Also if God is so powerful, I don't understand why he would have to send his son to die for our wrong doings? Couldn't a being that is so powerful that he is able to create something as vast as the universe, be able to wash sins away?
    An infinitely just God could not ignore justice or set it aside--infinite justice requires that there be just consequences for every act, whether they be good or evil. Even if God were merciful, the penalty for evil must be paid; and if the penalty must be paid, then there must be someone capable and willing to pay it.

  7. #107
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If belief in God is morally obligatory, then there must be evidence that God exists. If the consequence for unbelief is maximal punishment, then God's existence must be maximally clear--those guilty of unbelief must be without excuse. If God were to punish you for something you couldn't know, then God would be unjust, (indeed, God would be infinitely unjust), but historical theism maintains that God is just.
    That's why damnation before true awareness (e.g., not having the option to change after death, where we finally ARE able to see) seems false to me.

    An infinitely just God could not ignore justice or set it aside--infinite justice requires that there be just consequences for every act, whether they be good or evil. Even if God were merciful, the penalty for evil must be paid; and if the penalty must be paid, then there must be someone capable and willing to pay it.
    1. What exactly is good and what exactly is evil? We know that good/bad often varies on the perspective of the viewer vs the viewee, yet people still would insist on overlaying their own labels of sin on particular behaviors and then saying the scales "need to be balanced."

    2. There is no literal punishment in many relationships that must be manifestly carried out, due to the nature of forgiveness. Often people will forgive -- spouses, their partner, or parents, their children -- without bringing their suffering to light. Because to do so would ruin the nature of the forgiveness.

    In this sense, there IS a punishment -- the forgiver is relinquishing the rights to have the other person offer recompense and they absorb emotional pain -- but it is not overt.

    So if good parents and people who love us can do that for us, why must there be "overt" justice on God's part for humanity's generic "sin nature," where He had to kill his own son as part of somehow balancing the scales?

    And would God be unjust for forgiving us for offensive choices we make out of a lack of understanding?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #108
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    There has never been a civilization not based on a religion.

    And our civilization is based on Christianity.

    And Christ is the central figure of our Christian mythos.

    And our mythos is the meaning of our civilization.

    That is why our mythos is sacred.

    Our mythos is our shared home.

    Victor.

  9. #109
    Member Judous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If belief in God is morally obligatory, then there must be evidence that God exists. If the consequence for unbelief is maximal punishment, then God's existence must be maximally clear--those guilty of unbelief must be without excuse.
    Right. What evidence do you see makes God's existence maximally clear? So far we have seen that both God and the theory of Evolution ultimately cannot be proven is disproved. They are two separate but parallel lines of belief, and I found myself standing between the two

  10. #110
    Senior Member Butterfly's Avatar
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    What about the concept of Jesus in other religions such as Judaism and Islam???

    I dont know what Jews think of Jesus?

    I know Islam considers Jesus as a Prophet and not son of God. Muslims say Jesus will return again, and he was neither crucified nor is he dead, but is still alive and will return.

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