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Thread: Is there?

  1. #1
    Member cosmicdancer's Avatar
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    Default Is there?

    Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

    Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

    No need for words...

    A place beyond this?

  2. #2
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    If there were such a place, I 'm not sure whether I 'd like to live there. What's in our heads and hearts can be too personal for everyone to know

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    Member cosmicdancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    If there were such a place, I 'm not sure whether I 'd like to live there. What's in our heads and hearts can be too personal for everyone to know
    Why do you not want anyone to know?

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    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    If it's an afterlife vision akin to heaven that you are asking about, I can not tell you the answer, I feel that there isn't but I can't prove that.

    If it's on this world, I am a lover of the idealised vision of how humanity could be, but have learnt much to my unhappiness that such a place will never be.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post
    Why do you not want anyone to know?
    Well, if such a place as the one you suggested could exist, this could be each one's head. Where we have our personal worlds, our thoughts, and opinions, which we can filter them and then communicate them to other people in a way we see convenient each time.
    Wouldn't you feel your privecy threatened if somebody could see directly into your head, things that only have meaning for you, things you want to keep them for yourself, etc.?

  6. #6
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Jacques-Rousseau View Post
    Quit thy childhood, my friend, and wake up.
    I have so much respect for the INF idealistic vision, that I am sorry that I have to maintain almost the opposite of what you've insinuated.

    Take a look....

    ''Somewhere in the 1600s a man who could not see, sat down to write what he thought would be the greatest poem in human history. He said it would include, in his words, ''things yet unattempted in prose or rhyme.'' It is the view of the modern world that he achieved just that. His poem, the paradise Lost, is considered the greatest epic in human history. Few poems take on such an enormous theme as Paradise Lost, a theme that is not less than the origin of evil in itself. The man who took on this ambitious challenge, and created a classic in the process, is a man who led a life of immense struggle, loss and sacrifice. In a sense, John Milton's life was a search for paradise-a life in which the poet became the poem.''


    And

    “ Spinoza lived an uneventful life…Outwardly he was a poor lensgrinder supporting himself by his labors and indulging in much study. It has been the fashion to indulge in sentimentality over the man whom Unamo called the tragic, sorrowful Jew of Amsterdam, cut off from his own people and leading a lonely and frustrated life..,For under a rather drab exterior there burned the inward glory, the clam clear light of mind that has looked upon the very face of God, and in the knowledge and in the intellectual love of God found peace and blessedness. "

    The first is an INFP, a thorough-going dreamer/idealist who prided himself on being able to preserve purity of heart. The other, is a cynical realist who prided himself on remaining sober and objective all the way through. Milton wanted the to climb up the Tower of Babel into the very firmament. Marx(communism), another INTP, constructed a tower of his own, but not to reach heaven, but to bring heaven down to Earth.

    I think that both of those propositions are humbug. Spinoza, on the other hand said, let it be that we neither reach heaven, nor bring it down to Earth. But create it within ourselves. A happy person is one who is not blown around thither and hither by external circumstances, but one who found inner peace and can adapt well enough as to avoid compromising its integrity. To be happy and to be true to self mean the same thing, and a happy person is one whose inner being is sound and can remain sound irrespectively of what morbid circumstances may be imposed upon it.

    Learning how to deal with the world as it comes and figuring out a way to be happy with what you have paves the way for immortal wisdom. The heavenly gates shall only open when you stop longing to be in paradise (adjust external circumstances), but look within yourself. The true path to beautificaton lies only from within.

    Voltaire, whose name I find it almost sacrilegeous to mention among all of these lofty ideals had his Candide come back to his own garden.

    Yes, I am a believer in all of those lofty visions of eternal bliss, yet I think they are to be achieved in a radically different way than the INFs will tell you. Only through acceptance and understanding of this world as it is, and not striving for the world to come. The two are almost diametrically opposed to each other. After we have understood our environment and come to terms with our passions of disgust for the way it has turned out, our passion shall be tamed because we have to terms with them, and incidentally it will cease to be a passions. Only through acceptance of this world can we come to peace with ourselves and our environment.

    In this way, I propose, INTs work side by side with INFs to pave the way for beautification, yet since these two paths are not compatible with one another, no more than one of them could ring true.
    Last edited by SolitaryWalker; 09-25-2007 at 01:26 AM.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #7
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I have so much respect for the INF idealistic vision, that I am sorry that I have to maintain almost the opposite of what you've insinuated.

    Yes, I am a believer in all of those lofty visions of eternal bliss, yet I think they are to be achieved in a radically different way than the INFs will tell you. Only through acceptance and understanding of this world as it is, and not striving for the world to come. The two are almost diametrically opposed to each other. After we have understood our environment and come to terms with our passions of disgust for the way it has turned out, our passion shall be tamed because we have to terms with them, and incidentally it will cease to be a passions. Only through acceptance of this world can we come to peace with ourselves and our environment.

    In this way, I propose, INTs work side by side with INFs to pave the way for beautification, yet since these two paths are not compatible with one another, no more than one of them could ring true.
    You really weren't kidding when you said you could identify with INFP's, were you? Some of what you said had almost the same idealistic overtone. I can appreciate that.

    But even I wouldn't presume to say that the ideal I want for is achievable. Let me explain it this way. To totally understand, feel connected to, and care about people is not achievable, just as infinity is not achievable, no matter how long you count. But I think of it this way: "If you look to a gown of gold, you will at least get a sleeve of it." What that means is, if you try for something that you want, you'll get something out of it. And while I'll never fully feel understood or fully understand another person, each communication and understanding brings me closer, just as counting brings me closer to one end of infinity, even though I will never actually reach it.

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    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post
    Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

    Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

    No need for words...

    A place beyond this?
    I think that in the best of relationships, the intimacy of love comes close.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  9. #9
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    I think that in the best of relationships, the intimacy of love comes close.
    I disagree. Intimacy involves a lack of thought and awareness. It seems to be beyond all that, because your faculties are impaired when you intimately care about someone. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, that just means it isn't what we were talking about.

    I believe the most pure kind of compassion and understanding is the kind you feel for someone you will never meet or communicate with, but have only read their writing. When the feeling of resonance doesn't promise anything, bring you acceptance, or justify your views, and is based solely on a comprehension of the idea they were trying to convey, that is when the understanding is the most pure.

    So in other words, the deepest form of sympathy possible in reality is between two authors who never communicate with one another. If they read one another's writing, their understanding of one another's writing meets the aforementioned conditions, and they never have and never will meet or in any way knowingly affect one another, that is the purest form of mutual understanding possible.

  10. #10
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I disagree.
    Well, I disagree with your disagreement.

    I don't know. It's possible I've misunderstood the op, but I will say my experience of intimacy reflects the experience the words in the op describe in a dyadic way.

    You are free to disagree in theory, but I'm afraid you will have little basis to comment on my experience which does come close to an experience of being able to drop masks, pretence, barriers, and falsities; where I often seem to sense what's in the heart of my beloved and he often seems to sense what's in mine - without words - my pain, my love, my joy, my sadness...no need for words.

    It's not perfect, but I said it came close. It's certainly the closest to what was described that I've ever experienced.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

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