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Thread: Is there?

  1. #11
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    Well, I disagree with your disagreement.

    I don't know. It's possible I've misunderstood the op, but I will say my experience of intimacy reflects the experience the words in the op describe in a dyadic way.

    You are free to disagree in theory, but I'm afraid you will have little basis to comment on my experience which does come close to an experience of being able to drop masks, pretence, barriers, and falsities; where I often seem to sense what's in the heart of my beloved and he often seems to sense what's in mine - without words - my pain, my love, my joy, my sadness...no need for words.

    It's not perfect, but I said it came close. It's certainly the closest to what was described that I've ever experienced.
    I much sympathize with your longing for true intimacy. However, I do not believe that man is capable of it untill he/she has found inner peace. If he/she has not they will attempt to find compensation from their partner, then 'intimacy' would be no more than a travesty. Perhaps the relationship will give you the inspiration to truly search yourself and find the inner peace, as it will replenish you with positive energy. But, I suspect, that unless you're coming into the relationship with a strong sense of inner peace, it isn't going to last, and as soon as its up so will be the genuine intimacy in your relationship.

    First, you find inner peace and then intimacy with others will follow as a necessary entailment once you're called upon. But then you should take good care to keep yourself centered so the external world does not debase your inner calm.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I will agree that for you, tovlo, that might be closest. But I could never truly feel anything without words. Words are the deepest source of emotion to me. Without words, I believe I would feel nothing at all.

    The only problem is, I don't think it's really "sensing their feelings" the way you described. I think the only thing people share in that sense is a mutual compassion and understanding of one another's habits. Beautiful, perhaps, but not a pure understanding.

    For me, theory is more and greater than experience, so I take your allowance for me to disagree with you in theory as sufficient.

  3. #13
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I disagree. Intimacy involves a lack of thought and awareness. It seems to be beyond all that, because your faculties are impaired when you intimately care about someone.
    My experience of intimacy is that it calls upon my faculties and awareness, and indeed, requires them.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, that just means it isn't what we were talking about.
    Based on the OP's questions, it seemed to answer them directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I believe the most pure kind of compassion and understanding is the kind you feel for someone you will never meet or communicate with, but have only read their writing. When the feeling of resonance doesn't promise anything, bring you acceptance, or justify your views, and is based solely on a comprehension of the idea they were trying to convey, that is when the understanding is the most pure.

    So in other words, the deepest form of sympathy possible in reality is between two authors who never communicate with one another. If they read one another's writing, their understanding of one another's writing meets the aforementioned conditions, and they never have and never will meet or in any way knowingly affect one another, that is the purest form of mutual understanding possible.
    I think understanding exists in the context of a feedback loop where those things expressed by a person are restated by another and in so hearing the expressor may decide if they have been understood.

    My sense of what you said is that you described the highest form of emotional and cognitive resonance.



    cheers,
    Ian

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post
    Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

    Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

    No need for words...

    A place beyond this?
    That sounds horrible, if such a place were to exist I would avoid it at all costs.

  5. #15
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post
    Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

    Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

    No need for words...

    A place beyond this?
    The Romans had the baths. You still have a Roman bath in Constantinopol.
    The Turks have the steam baths and the Icelanders have the hot springs. The Japanese have their own hot baths.
    The Permians and the Swedes have the Siberian Sauna. Take your pick.

    The travel bureaus may offer more even more variety.

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    My experience of intimacy is that it calls upon my faculties and awareness, and indeed, requires them.
    I was referring to cognitive faculties and awareness, actually. A feeling doesn't mean anything to me until it's processed and understood somehow. When people are in a relationship/married, it invokes all kinds of endorphins, hormones, and amygdala functions. Enough that I consider it a semi-instinctive type of emotion that isn't completely related to your true feelings or your true personality.

    If you want to be technical, I'll admit that it answered the question according to all the specified parameters, but I don't personally agree with it.


    I think understanding exists in the context of a feedback loop where those things expressed by a person are restated by another and in so hearing the expressor may decide if they have been understood.
    Technically, you are right. But adding that parameter changes my answer. If the two must interact, then the highest form would still be between two writers who admire each others work before meeting, and then write letters, and never influence each other in any other way. I'm sorry, I think words and ideas are the highest and purest form of emotional expression, so I'm probably not equipped to answer the original post.
    My sense of what you said is that you described the highest form of emotional and cognitive resonance.
    Yes, and I think it was worth describing, too. Isn't it a more beautiful and pure idea than a relationship between lovers?

    Anyway, we may have different ideas regarding what is an emotion or not, since I'm Ni dominant, and only have Fe as my secondary. You may be able to feel your emotions more directly. Fe is a more outer directed and analytical approach to feelings (but just as deep in my opinion). So our views maybe equally valid.

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Everyone on this board should read this essay, especially the INFs.

    This was my personal inspiration: Bertrand Russell, A Free Man's Worship
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Everyone on this board should read this essay, especially the INFs.

    This was my personal inspiration: Bertrand Russell, A Free Man's Worship
    That was interesting, BlueWing. It had a depressing side, but it was very moving. I wouldn't have thought you were so interested in that kind of thing. Thank you for sharing that with us.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    If there were such a place, I 'm not sure whether I 'd like to live there. What's in our heads and hearts can be too personal for everyone to know
    That's because you don't trust other people with it...but the post topic speaks to that very issue. Is there a place where you can trust the others with what you hold most dear? Where you can be unguarded? Where you can be vulnerable?

  10. #20
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Everyone on this board should read this essay, especially the INFs.
    This was my personal inspiration: Bertrand Russell, A Free Man's Worship
    I enjoyed the essay.

    The compassion in my heart sang along with these words:

    Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instil faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need--of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives; let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as ourselves.

    BlueWing, I do think in reading the essay and re-reading your posts to this thread that perhaps I understand a bit more clearly the point you're trying to make here and how it relates to the opening poster's question.

    Would these words of yours contain some summary of your point of view?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Learning how to deal with the world as it comes and figuring out a way to be happy with what you have paves the way for immortal wisdom. The heavenly gates shall only open when you stop longing to be in paradise (adjust external circumstances), but look within yourself. The true path to beautificaton lies only from within.
    Do you see the OP as describing a longing for paradise? If so, do you see that longing as unlikely to bring a person to true peace? Do you believe that true peace can only be experienced when you learn how to deal with the world as it comes and figure out a way to be happy with what you have?

    If so, I feel agreement with this idea.

    Yet I don't find the idea inconsistent with imagining what could be or with delighting in the tastes of those imaginations we might find present in our reality.

    It seems to me the block to peace might come in a belief that happiness rests in a realization of ideals. I think ideals are ideals, reality something else. Ideals shed a light on reality, illuminating the richness of it's colors.

    I experience and delight in subtle shades of the OP ideal through intimate human relationship("Intimacy is linked with feelings of closeness, safety, trust and transparency among partners in a collaborative relationship."). What I experience is reality, not realized ideal, but I believe my engagement in this reality is greater for having the ideal to light the way.

    I wonder if perhaps our realities naturally move closer to the ideal when we allow it's light to guide our steps.

    I don't discount the possibility that the fullness of what the op describes might somewhere be or one day come to be reality. I don't base my happiness on it being or becoming so, but I don't limit potential by saying it cannot be or rejecting what of it does present in my world.

    I have always found compelling an idealistic inclination to dream of what could be, grounded in a realistic acceptance of what presents in each moment. Sometimes life gets unbalanced, but always within me is a deep respect for the value of both.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

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