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  1. #51
    Senior Member celesul's Avatar
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    Actually ity's not necessarily unbiblical... I read something about how this passage: Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." could simply say that penetrative sex is unbiblical, but as long as that doesn't happen it's ok. That does seem a rather resonable interpretaion, because of the line about how is it was "as one lies with a women" and being a lesbian isn't mentioned at all. Really, as usual, religion is all about interpretation.
    "'You scoundrel, you have wronged me,' hissed the philosopher. 'May you live forever!'" - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #52
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think discipline in this context probably means removal from whatever ministry position they are in and having to undergo some kind of counseling program and serve a probation period afterward before they are restored to their position with full privileges.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #53
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    This is where "Sola Scriptura" becomes the sticking point. I, along with most of the Episcopal church, which many protestant sects consider The Gay Loving Church, personally do not think of the book as the whole of the faith. Yes, it is a valuable source of insight and history, and yes, I revere the book and the machinations people have gone through to compile and preserve it. But I don't consider it to be infallible, and I don't view what's inside it in a vacuum.

    When I was seeking, I was especially moved by what our priest said about the Episcopal approach to faith. They call it the "three legged stool," of scripture, tradition, and reason. Reason! Is okay! This was one of my first experiences with reason being a valid part of the spiritual walk, and not considered the devil's influence.

    She also said something that still resonates with me today: "There's plenty of room at God's table." Exclusionary worship just doesn't sit well with me. People's private lives are their own to manage. It's not my job to sit in judgment. In a practical sense I can protect myself and my family and others from harm in whatever ways I can, but where there is no harm, it's officially "not my business."
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #54
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    She also said something that still resonates with me today: "There's plenty of room at God's table." Exclusionary worship just doesn't sit well with me. People's private lives are their own to manage. It's not my job to sit in judgment. In a practical sense I can protect myself and my family and others from harm in whatever ways I can, but where there is no harm, it's officially "not my business."
    How do you define harm? If your children chose to become muslims, for instance, would you see that as harmless? They probably wouldn't be hurting anyone, after all, and their private lives are their own business. Aren't they?

  5. #55
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    How do you define harm? If your children chose to become muslims, for instance, would you see that as harmless? They probably wouldn't be hurting anyone, after all, and their private lives are their own business. Aren't they?
    Sure. Privately, I'll be honest, I think I would be sad about it. But when they're adults they can be whatever religion they want. Not my decision. (Until then, I have responsibilities for my minor children that I don't have for Joe Christian or Joe Priest, so I take more of an active role with them beyond what's outright harmful.)

    Now, if that change came with cultural baggage that I consider to be harmful, like if my granddaughters were going to be subjected to FGM, you bet your sweet ass I'd step in.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #56
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Sure. Privately, I'll be honest, I think I would be sad about it. But when they're adults they can be whatever religion they want. Not my decision. (Until then, I have responsibilities for my minor children that I don't have for Joe Christian or Joe Priest, so I take more of an active role with them beyond what's outright harmful.)

    Now, if that change came with cultural baggage that I consider to be harmful, like if my granddaughters were going to be subjected to FGM, you bet your sweet ass I'd step in.
    Do you believe in hell?

  7. #57
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Do you believe in hell?
    Good question. Not really.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #58
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Good question. Not really.
    That would explain it then.



    So do you believe in heaven? If so, do you believe in exclusion from heaven? Do you believe in an afterlife at all?

  9. #59
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Hey! I thought this thread was about gay pastors, not the afterlife!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #60
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    That would explain it then.

    So do you believe in heaven? If so, do you believe in exclusion from heaven? Do you believe in an afterlife at all?
    Honestly, I think it's folly to pretend we know any of that stuff. I would rather just live my life the best I know how, afford others the freedom to do the same, and see what goes down after the big chill.

    And it is because of that that I don't have a problem with gay clergy! (To bring it back around for Jen.) To be fair, I also don't really have a problem with people who have a problem with gay clergy. That's why God or Martin Luther made the different churches.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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