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  1. #21
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    A democracy of ideas? Well that democracy has room for politicians.
    So militant atheists are politicians, now? I fail to see how that perspective improves their image...

  2. #22
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    As a Pragmatist, I would contend that one should not tell others/expose to others this "truth", because it does really no benefit to them. Destroying belief systems can be radically disasterous/unethical unless you have an imrpoved, superior belief system to supplant it...

    Bertrand Russell once said that people walk around with a set of propisitons surrounding them at all times, like flies on shit, right? Just let them belief, unless you are really that spiteful. My ESTP friend thinks everything can be boiled down to sex, money and hoes. I let him believe that too, because, well, he kind of has to. Sometimes, there's no point in bothering to correct someone....

    The real trick is that judgement call for you, eh ? when and when not to ~

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Bertrand Russell once said that people walk around with a set of propisitons surrounding them at all times, like flies on shit, right? Just let them belief, unless you are really that spiteful.
    Really, that's it.

    They've got to have SOME support structure philosophically, and it pretty much serves no good point to yank out someone's support unless you've got something they can use or you're going to carry their ass until they figure it out... so discretion is advised.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    I guess the idea is to not take away what someone else values, and to believe in something is to value it. What is the good of taking away what someone is fond of? It only teaches that the truth is harsh, that what is good for you is bad for you, and since this doesn't make any sense to begin with, it can only confuse the student, teaching them that truth is confusion. So instead, one waits until they lose their value of it, and search for what is better with openness. Then they are ready to learn, and you will be sure to teach correctly, and they will learn correctly.
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    What is life, lives.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, your position is that we do not want it. In some cases, like medicine for example, the scientific truth is useful as it has practical applications. In religion, such applications are much less pronounced, therefore they are less desirable.
    My position is that people are pragmatic and want what benefits them most.

  6. #26
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What I wish to get it is a much deeper concern to us all. Namely, should those of us who do know the truth share it with the ignorant?
    In other words, should atheists evangelize? I'm inclined to say no. After all, much of the harm that has been caused by religion has been related to the forcing of religion on others. Might the same thing happen with atheism?

    And I take issue with your use of the word "truth". I agree with Elaur that many religious beliefs, e.g. the mere prescence of a higher power, are impossible to prove or disprove. Therefore, you technically don't know if atheism is "true" or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    There is no conclusive proof about religions, however, some arguments on the subject are better than others. Those proposed by the scientists and the philosophers do not guarantee us the knowledge of the truth, though they give us much more clear indicators of what the truth is than those that are almost completely unfounded.

    In one sentence, no argument about religion or many popular myth has all the evidence on its side, yet some arguments have more evidence than others. A rational person will believe in the one that is more supported by evidence.
    A flaw here: Religion and science are not always mutually exclusive. For instance, deism.
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  7. #27
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Why do we value to happiness of future humans so much lower than that of present humans?

    Also, I am not trying to push atheism on anyone (I wouldn't call myself an atheist even). It's more a matter of attacking their beliefs than replacing them with my own.

  8. #28
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    How are you defining meaning? The most typical notion of meaning as significance something holds to a person. In other words, it is how important something is to someone. I do not see why something needs to be a true beleive to be important to a person. Imagine an ordinary non-educated person of 900. He finds meaning in the proposition that the Earth is flat because it makes him feel genuinely knowledgeable, and it is important for him to be knowledgeable.

    How is the person in question robbed of meaning by a belief in falsehoods. Yes, certainly interested in continuing the formal debate.
    I'm not using "meaning" as above. Meaning, in this context, is the most basic object of cognition; it's intimately related to the formation of concepts, judgments, and arguments; it makes thought and dialouge possible.

    Not all false beliefs rob one of meaning. It is only in those cases where the person in question's belief is clearly false that he is without meaning. Take, for example, an analytic apriori proposition; the only way a person could reject the veracity of such a proposition is if he doesn't understand what that proposition means.

  9. #29
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I'm not using "meaning" as above. Meaning, in this context, is the most basic object of cognition; it's intimately related to the formation of concepts, judgments, and arguments; it makes thought and dialouge possible.

    Not all false beliefs rob one of meaning. It is only in those cases where the person in question's belief is clearly false that he is without meaning. Take, for example, an analytic apriori proposition; the only way a person could reject the veracity of such a proposition is if he doesn't understand what that proposition means.

    Meaning is defined as a formation of a concept? All of one's beliefs then have meaning, whether true or false. Essentially as they are all statements thst mean something or entail a conceptual notion about the world. How then, do clearly false beliefs rob a person of meaning? The only way one can have meaninglessness with regard to any proposition is by being completely ignorant of it. What is the relevance of apriori analytic principles?
    Last edited by SolitaryWalker; 06-04-2009 at 08:29 PM.
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  10. #30
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Aleksey, are you going to tell me why you value the happiness of present humans higher than that of future humans?
    wails from the crypt.

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