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  1. #21
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    All of these concepts are buildings blocks to a healthy view of self but where is the line between confidence and bloated self-importance?
    Good question. It makes me wonder.

    It may be bit misleading to think of it as a continuum with a line. It seems anything except exactly healthy self-confidence is a brand of disassociation from others, and might be called narcissism, either over- or under-valuation of self. I like the saying that "modesty is the highest form of arrogance". Since healthy confidence places the self on a level of equality with others, then an unhealthy state would be based off comparisons with others, and so sees the self as existing in a social power hierarchy. But if it is a sense of power which dictates ones comparisons, then there is no "just right" level. The whole conception of the hierarchy is flawed, and fundamentally cannot produce the right answer from within it. That is why thinking of it as a continuum would be misleading.

    The whole concept of power dynamics makes visible the dissociative element of the disorder, and you notice that the power hierarchy must be based on competition, or else comparisons could not have meaning. But if it is based on competition, then shame or guilt is implied in falling to the bottom. Otherwise, it would just be for fun. If it were just for fun, then there would be no power-based struggle. Since it is not just for fun, then fear is involved in the motivation for power. So, our breaker of social ties is fundamentally afraid.

    Since fear is always of something (or else it could produce no motivation away from it), then you can tell the difference between health and lack of health by asking yourself "what is at stake?" If something is just for fun, nothing is at stake. Otherwise, something is.

    Remember that the mind will often say nothing is at stake when something is, so you you must be vigilant and watch the mind's activity and be honest with yourself about what you see. Then, you will always know, when dealing with others, whether your approach is healthy or not. Fear is not difficult to recognize because it will always fill you with a sense that something is missing or out of place, so be honest about your feelings.

    "Narcissism" gets a very bad rap, but I think you can recognize your distance from it by the degree to which you are able to look upon it with forgiving eyes, without mocking it or hating it, and so on.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    For me the difference between having the qualities listed in the OP and a narcissist comes with their willingness to exploit and use others to reach their goals along with their exaggerated self importance and sense of entitlement.
    Makes sense...it was really more of an acknowledgement that if we had to choose which types are most susceptible to narcissism, ENTP is probably up there. That's the impression that I got from Peguy's initial comment, but perhaps I misread his tone.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    I don't use the word narcissism in plain speech, because to me...

    narcissism = narcissistic personality disorder, a psychotic personality disorder seen in 1% of the population, which is relatively common. But in short, narcissists are terrible with relationships. They dont walk; they strut. They don't stop; they pose. Other people are only kept close for as long as they can be used for "narcissistic supply," or admiration. Once they no longer admire the narcissist, he moves on to a new circle of acquaintances, using his charm to win them over. He keeps himself surrounded in this way, unknowingly, because he requires only being around people who 'adore' him, because his delusion must remain intact.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  4. #24
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    narcissism does not equate to the personality disorder, narcissism is a construct on several scales. Its essential characteristic is that the person's worldview is skewed in a way that they insert themselves into, or attribute to themselves, things that they normally shouldn't.

    A person with high/healthy/adjectivehereplz self-esteem needn't have a "corrupted" or altered worldview.

    Just don't ask me, or anyone in clinical psychology for that matter, what a uncorrupted worldview is like, or what kind of attributions a person OUGHT to make ..... :P

    NArcissism isn't about what you do (everyone's gonig to be vain), it's about what you shouldn't be doing....


    EDIT: Btw this is in the wrong section, dont you think Prot sweety? :P self-esteem and narcissism are topics in modern psychology, not spiritually or phil!

  5. #25
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    One test for confidence vs. narcissism is not as much how self is understood, but how self compares to others. There are people who think themselves absolutely marvelous, but they think everyone else is too. I think this might be called charisma. If there is a strongly asymmetrical view that places self as inflated over others, then that is more narcissism.

    .
    ^This is good too. its about a person's fairness/symmetry when they see the social world, if you will. Again, it's very easy to overinfer the pressence of narcissism. You talk of "bloated self-importance" as if every human DOESN'T already bear this.... (hello, speciesism?!?). Every human out there can have bloated self-importance, that doesn't mean they are narcissistic.

  6. #26
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    they equal each other.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  7. #27
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    they equal each other.
    Then narcissism is healthy? I respectfully disagree.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  8. #28
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    Then narcissism is healthy? I respectfully disagree.
    Narcissism is what you see when you personally judge someone else's self-esteem negatively. There's no use saying what you just said, because if you're negatively judging someone then it follows that you'd also perceive that person as more unhealthy than healthy.

    ---

    A common argument leveled against the narcissism/self-esteem issue is that narcissism is often described as being "baseless", "petty" or "misguided" while self-esteem is "deserved", "indicative of a strong personality" . But this is not really any different than stating a personal opinion, and as such fails to distinguish between the two terms objectively. There's no such distinction. A highly successful businessman could be, for instance, very flamboyant, arrogant -- bordering on what people call "narcissistic" and continue to be highly successful. That any observers would possibly wish him badly, or curse his name, judge him for his attitude, think him to be weak/insecure etc. wouldn't change the fact that what is described as narcissism there is simply an expression of his self-esteem. Of course if that businessman was much more down-to-earth, self-effacing, considerate etc. that would be judged as healthy self-esteem and "a strong personality".
    Not really.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, I guess I've made a mistake in assuming this is common for ENTPs...but I wasn't really taking it literally. It's kind of an exaggeration of certain ENTP attention whoring tendencies.
    Those who actively seek the spotlight, find it eludes them.
    Those who don't, frequently have to wear sunglasses.

  10. #30
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    Then narcissism is healthy? I respectfully disagree.
    is having too much self esteem healthy? is anything ever healthy? too much oxygen in the air, and your veins will get shredded. too much water and you drown. too many risks and you end up trapped.

    my point is that too much of anything is unhealthy. high self esteem and narcissism to me are two words for the same semantic. it is healthy to a degree. i have personally never had any problems being a narcissist, which leads me to question why exactly narcissism is a bad thing?
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

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