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What is this god of which you speak?

juggernaut

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Rather than rehashing all the same old arguments against the existence of a god, how about those of you who believe that a god/gods exist tell us what exactly is in your head/heart/gut/arse/whatever when you think about god? This word "god" has no real semantic content for me, so when I hear people talk about god I find myself wondering about the (Fregean) sense of the word. What does "god" pick out for you? I'm not at all interested in hearing about the greatness of your god or what your god does for you. I want to know what it is. I know many of you who have a belief in a god are familiar with the arguments against its existence so, if possible, please try to avoid the jargon that you know will cause the atheists around these parts to jump on your case(s).
 

Sentura

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etymology says the word "god" comes from ancient sanskrit and means "everything". i'm inclined to follow that belief. god is no seperate omniscient entity, god is all of us.
 

nozflubber

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If you make God essentially synonymous with "existence" or "universe" like some philosophers do, then there is no problem or question whatsoever, and you'll also find that a large percentage of the statements made about God still hold truth value. Its taken as fact if you interpret it that way (which is how I think of God)
 

juggernaut

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etymology says the word "god" comes from ancient sanskrit and means "everything". i'm inclined to follow that belief. god is no seperate omniscient entity, god is all of us.

If you make God essentially synonymous with "existence" or "universe" like some philosophers do, then there is no problem or question whatsoever, and you'll also find that a large percentage of the statements made about God still hold truth value. Its taken as fact if you interpret it that way (which is how I think of God)

So why do we call it "god" in those cases? Isn't existence or everything (linguistically, and perhaps metaphysically) enough? What's the point of using/keeping the term at all if there are already terms in place that do the job? In other words, if existence is existence and everything is everything, why do we bother with "god" at all?
 

Sentura

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^ don't mistake the individual for the general populace. i don't call anything god unless it's in reference for a discussion. it has a specific semantic connotation these days, so i just go with that.
 

juggernaut

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^ don't mistake the individual for the general populace. i don't call anything god unless it's in reference for a discussion. it has a specific semantic connotation these days, so i just go with that.

Don't assume I'm making that mistake. :) The point is that there's still nothing there. If god is just existence, or the sum total of everything, the term itself has no independent meaning and is, therefore, essentially useless. This is why philosophers have such an easy time making short work of these kinds of explanations.
 

simulatedworld

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Congratulations, you've discovered Thelogical Noncognitivism, which states that discussion of God is meaningless until a common definition of God is reached.

Whoops, too bad there's no such common definition. I try to use whatever the most popular specific semantic connotation is these days (i.e., a separate conscious entity that is omnipotent, omniscient and has a particular moral agenda he wants us to follow on pain of missing out on eternal bliss for eternal suffering, etc.) when I discuss God, because it needs a standard definition in order to discuss it meaningfully at all, but when I call myself an atheist in reference to that, I just get assaulted by a bunch of angry NFs with bizarre, borderline asinine "personal definitions of God" that are so watered down and vague that their sole purpose seems to be maintaining denial of atheism.

I mean really, it's great if God is "the spirit of all of us and our happiness" for you or whatever warm fuzzy abstract ideal, but for all intents and purposes that's not really what people are talking about when we discuss "God" in a modern popular context.
 

juggernaut

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Congratulations, you've discovered Thelogical Noncognitivism, which states that discussion of God is meaningless until a common definition of God is reached.

Whoops, too bad there's no such common definition. I try to use whatever the most popular specific semantic connotation is these days (i.e., a separate conscious entity that is omnipotent, omniscient and has a particular moral agenda he wants us to follow on pain of missing out on eternal bliss for eternal suffering, etc.) when I discuss God, because it needs a standard definition in order to discuss it meaningfully at all, but when I call myself an atheist in reference to that, I just get assaulted by a bunch of angry NFs with bizarre, borderline asinine "personal definitions of God" that are so watered down and vague that their sole purpose seems to be maintaining denial of atheism.

I mean really, it's great if God is "the spirit of all of us and our happiness" for you or whatever warm fuzzy abstract ideal, but for all intents and purposes that's not really what people are talking about when we discuss "God" in a modern popular context.

Thank you SW, I prefer ignosticism. :) Your point is well taken though.

I was kind of hoping someone might give an account of what they actually believe in when they say they believe in god. I'm not all that interested in the arguments against its/his/her/their existence. I just want to hear what it is that believers believe god is. What is it that they see in their heads when they talk about god?
 

Synarch

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Thank you SW, I prefer ignosticism. :)

I was kind of hoping someone might give an account of what they actually believe in when they say they believe in god. I'm not all that interested in the arguments against its/his/her/their existence. I just want to hear what it is that believers believe god is.

I am more agnostic than anything else. But, to me, God is a creative presence at work in the world. A force for goodness. A light in the void.
 

simulatedworld

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Thank you SW, I prefer ignosticism. :) Your point is well taken though.

Fair enough.

P.S.,

So the truth is out...you're really an INTJ! I suspected you might not be ENTJ when I read your post on that thread about pointing out the ways in which you don't fit your type mold...and you sounded pretty introverted to me.
 

juggernaut

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So the truth is out...you're really an INTJ! I suspected you might not be ENTJ when I read your post on that thread about pointing out the ways in which you don't fit your type mold...and you sounded pretty introverted to me.


The secret is out, drat! Does this mean my membership in the cool kids' club is going to be revoked? :boohoo:
 

simulatedworld

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^ Nah, I like most INTJs better than their E counterparts anyway.
 

juggernaut

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Phew! I left you something very E in the song dedications btw. Perhaps that will help me get some cred.
 

ADISCIPLE

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Don't assume I'm making that mistake. :) The point is that there's still nothing there. If god is just existence, or the sum total of everything, the term itself has no independent meaning and is, therefore, essentially useless. This is why philosophers have such an easy time making short work of these kinds of explanations.

What comes to mind when thinking about life, especially conscious life, there must be a greater order. To assume that God is in everything or is just an existence is not really meaningless because there are consequences for action. With the idea of God being in all things life than there is a specific purpose or order to follow, obstructing this order would be to meddle with the order of life, in general. Do you see how humans are distinct by all measure in building what is around us, to determine success above biological success (i.e. reproduction). Do the birds in the sky feel the need to question such existence? Do the trees? The Sky? Only mankind has the function of accomplishing these sorts. Therefore we are the only lifeform that voluntarily disobeys the order in place. Because of this we build nations against one another, people against people, we take pills and eat bad foods, we build towers and transportation, We kill in conquer for wants far outside our needs. But to survive we must build shelter, kill food, make clothing, and have clean water. It is obvious to me that with the idea of God in everything states that naturally life will run its course and in the long term cleanse itself of any undoing. The thought isn't meaningless, because our existence would depend on it.
 

Little Linguist

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If you took the whole universe - including everything, and I mean everything, matter, energy, antimatter, everything in any dimension or timeframe and somehow managed to sum it all up (although that's really impossible) whether it be on the physical or another plane, that'd be God.

But it's not one thing - it's simply everything. And it's not a being (physical or otherwise). It just is. And interestingly enough if you look at all religious traditions, they basically say the same thing in different words.

God is simply a word denoted to the summation of all space, time, and matter and the lack of all three combined. It is and is not.

That's why you can't prove or disprove it.
 

juggernaut

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What comes to mind when thinking about life, especially conscious life, there must be a greater order. To assume that God is in everything or is just an existence is not really meaningless because there are consequences for action. With the idea of God being in all things life than there is a specific purpose or order to follow, obstructing this order would be to meddle with the order of life, in general. Do you see how humans are distinct by all measure in building what is around us, to determine success above biological success (i.e. reproduction). Do the birds in the sky feel the need to question such existence? Do the trees? The Sky? Only mankind has the function of accomplishing these sorts. Therefore we are the only lifeform that voluntarily disobeys the order in place. Because of this we build nations against one another, people against people, we take pills and eat bad foods, we build towers and transportation, We kill in conquer for wants far outside our needs. But to survive we must build shelter, kill food, make clothing, and have clean water. It is obvious to me that with the idea of God in everything states that naturally life will run its course and in the long term cleanse itself of any undoing. The thought isn't meaningless, because our existence would depend on it.

So I'm not exactly clear on what god designates here. Is this some form of the teleological argument? I'm having a little trouble finding the "god" in this passage. Is god in the stuff of life or is god the stuff of life? Is it purpose? If so, how do you know you're evaluating it correctly? :thinking:

Also how do you know that our "disobedience" isn't a part of the order? In evolutionary terms, it seems obvious that this supposed disobedience has worked quite well for us.
 

juggernaut

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If you took the whole universe - including everything, and I mean everything, matter, energy, antimatter, everything in any dimension or timeframe and somehow managed to sum it all up (although that's really impossible) whether it be on the physical or another plane, that'd be God.

Hmmm, I seem to be going in circles here. Why is 'everything' God? Why isn't 'everything' just everything?
 

Little Linguist

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Because the essence of god incorporates everything and nothing. That's why it's not everything.

In essence, God is our limited way of envisioning all there is and all there is not on a physical plane with a physical body and a physical mind.
 
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